the realities and opportunities beyond big 4 firms.
subscribe to 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间 podcasts anywhere
accounting arc
with donny shimamoto, liz mason, and byron patrick
center for accounting transformation
the latest episode of accounting arc, “busting the big 4 myth,” offers various perspectives on careers in accounting.
more: harper & co. cpas: the perspective of a non-accountant is imperative | menlo innovations: improve office culture by overhauling internal reviews | dustin wheeler: for serious cas success, hire tech teams | chase birky: overcoming paralysis by analysis |
exclusively for pro members. log in here or 2022世界杯足球排名 today.
hosts donny shimamoto, cpa, citp, cgma; byron patrick, cpa, citp, cgma; and liz mason, cpa, share their unique experiences, challenging the notion that success in accounting is synonymous with working for one of the big four firms.
shimamoto, founder and managing director of intraprisetechknowlogies llc and founder of the center for accounting transformation, started his career in the late 90s with coopers and lybrand (now pwc), provides a nuanced view of working in a smaller office within a big four firm. “i got to do financial audit, it audit, and consulting, which shaped my ability to work in consulting now,” he explains, highlighting the benefits of a diverse skill set gained from varied responsibilities.
adding to shimamoto’s point, patrick, vice president of client success at the b3 method institute, opted for a small firm over the big six (now big four). he describes the extensive hands-on experience he gained. “i did nonprofit audits, government audits, corporate tax, individual tax, and strategic planning,” says patrick. this exposure helped him discover his passion for technology, steering his career in a direction he hadn’t initially anticipated.
meanwhile, mason, ceo and founder of high rock accounting, recounts her early career at grant thornton, working in reno, nevada. she says she appreciated the breadth of experience she gained, from casino audits to agricultural tax returns. “i learned i loved casinos and cash-heavy businesses,” she shares, emphasizing the importance of exploring different industries to find one’s niche.
the hosts collectively emphasize the vast opportunities in accounting beyond the big four. shimamoto references his participation in the national pipeline symposium, where various accounting paths were discussed, including roles in government accounting, internal auditing, and management accounting. “there are so many valid career paths within the accounting profession,” he says.
mason and patrick echo these sentiments, stressing the need for students and professionals to define their own success. “think about how you measure success and the risks associated with achieving it,” advises mason. patrick adds, “be open to changing course. your initial path might not be where you end up, and that’s okay.”
the episode also delves into the evolving nature of the accounting profession, with a growing focus on advisory roles and the integration of technology. mason points out the necessity of understanding both accounting and technology for future success. “you can’t do our jobs without implementing secure and robust systems,” she states.
as the discussion wraps up, the hosts offer experienced advice to listeners. shimamoto encourages embracing the unknown and using the foundational knowledge of accounting to explore diverse career paths. “whether you’re an a-student with a clear plan or someone figuring it out, accounting provides a strong foundation for success,” he concludes.
10 key takeaways
- working in smaller or regional offices of big four firms can offer a wide range of experiences across various fields such as financial audit, it audit, and consulting, providing a solid foundation for a versatile career.
- smaller accounting firms can provide extensive hands-on experience in multiple areas like nonprofit audits, government audits, corporate tax, individual tax, and strategic planning, helping professionals discover their true interests.
- careers in accounting are not limited to big four firms. opportunities exist in government accounting, internal auditing, management accounting, and consulting, among other fields.
- success in accounting is subjective and varies for each individual. it’s crucial to define personal goals and pursue paths that align with one’s interests and values rather than adhering to traditional measures of success.
- gaining experience in a variety of industries and roles can be more beneficial than specializing early in one’s career. this broad exposure helps in understanding different business models and identifying areas of interest.
- career paths can change over time, and it’s important to be open to new opportunities and shifts in interests. flexibility and willingness to adapt are key to long-term career satisfaction.
- understanding risk and implementing effective controls are fundamental aspects of the accounting profession. these skills are applicable beyond financial tasks and are essential in advisory roles.
- a strong foundation in technology is increasingly important in accounting. professionals need to understand and implement robust and secure systems to perform their jobs effectively.
- many accountants transition into entrepreneurial roles, starting their own firms or businesses. the skills and experiences gained in accounting provide a strong basis for successful business ownership.
- continuous learning and adapting to new trends, such as data analytics and advisory services, are crucial for staying relevant and advancing in the accounting profession.
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
donny shimamoto 00:04
all right, i guess i’m gonna kick us off today. and today we are busting the myth of working for a big four. because it, we’ve all been kind of hearing a lot about this pipeline issue. and somewhat i don’t know if i would call it the fear of all of this hard, crazy work and because maybe it’s rightfully to be afraid of that. and so we thought we would touch today on yeah, like, what are the other options besides working for a big four. and maybe i’ll start off because i actually did work for big four. when i started in the late 90s, i worked for coopers and lybrand. and i was through that transition of becoming part of pwc, eventually becoming pwc. but the big difference for me was i was with a smaller i was at home in the honolulu office, our practice was, i think it was 80 people total. so even though we were big for we worked like a smaller, or maybe midsize office, and i got to touch a lot of things. so i actually got to do financial accounting, i was in what was called the dual track. so financial accounting, and it audit, i should say, sorry, financial audit, and it audit. and then i also got pulled into the consulting side. so i got to do a little bit of everything, which i think really shaped what i did, and my ability to work in consulting now. so yeah, definitely big four, but not big four. yeah, but the, the two of you, what were your guys experiences coming through?
byron patrick 01:29
well, you know, it’s interesting. so i definitely, there were many reasons i didn’t end up going. it was big six at the time that i was there. but yeah, you know, and, in fact, i mean, a lot of the people i graduated with, went to arthur andersen because we were a big arthur andersen recruiting school. you know, but for various reasons, that wasn’t my path. i ended up going with a small firm. and it was great because i really got opportunity to do a lot of things. i, at the time, i was graduating, i really didn’t know, like what type of accounting that wanted to be. i had no idea that i was ultimately going to end up in a technology path. but i got so much exposure, being with a local firm, because i did nonprofit audits. i did government audits, i did corporate tax, individual tax, i did strategic planning, i really got my hands on a lot of stuff. and frankly, that’s also where i got exposure to technology. so you know, for me being able to work in an organization where i was able to touch a lot of different things expose me to a lot of great experience that, you know, kind of helped me to figure out what i did, and probably even more importantly, what i did not like to do.
liz mason 03:01
yeah, that’s interesting. so i graduated from the university of nevada in reno, which is, you know, kind of outside the places where big four had offices at the time. they did try to recruit me to las vegas to san francisco to la offices. but i chose to stay in reno when i first graduated, and they went to work for grant thornton. so close to it for not quite, our office also functioned more like a regional office would and that, you know, we had only about 100 people on the team in reno, we did a ton of casino audits, lots of tax around that. but then we also did weird stuff. like i did the tax return for a large dairy ranch that did like meat, which was interesting. good, very fascinating, right? so i got to like learn all these weird things there as well. and the way nevada law was structured at the time, i had to basically in charge an audit to be licensed. so everybody had to have audit experience you didn’t pick audit or tax your first couple years you needed both. and so you know, i did i ended up being you know, in the tax department, officially, but i was doing busy seasons were all audit, and then tax at night. and then deadline driven as well depending on what they needed help with. and i also learned a lot about what i didn’t like, like i learned i didn’t like doing trust or estate tax work at all. that was not my favorite thing. i learned i was not really a huge fan of ranches. that was it was interesting for sure. but when i went out to visit the client, i was like it smells like boop, not really my favorite but i also learned i loved casinos and cash heavy businesses. i thought it was fascinating the way that they had to do internal controls and the way you audit it and like the different counts and drops and watching it all and surveying it and i learned a lot about that industry because it’s fascinating to me. and so, you know, i think your point about getting exposure to a lot of things is important, as well. yeah.
byron patrick 05:10
and that’s, you know, so much fun, because i think there’s so much that especially, you know, in this is even beyond just the accounting path, that when you’re in college, you just haven’t been exposed to, you know, such a large majority of what is going on in the world. and i think i, i’m assuming, i’ve had a lot of conversations with with college students, but they put a lot of pressure on themselves to think like, they need to know what that path is. and the reality is, they likely have not even had exposure to the path that they will ultimately like, you know, gravitate to. so you know, having having an opportunity to work in like a regional size firm, whether it’s big four or small, but give you all those different exposures, i think is just such a great way to figure figure out that longer term path and what you do,
liz mason 06:09
honestly, you know, when it came to recruiting, i remember this very distinctly, the big four showed up to the perm side, of course, out of the other offices, and they showed up with people that were all dressed identical, their boobs were all, like, perfectly pristine. everybody that was brought to the table was very good looking, and very good at communicating. and that was scary to me. like that wasn’t like it didn’t feel real, it felt like they put together this team of like recruiters that was supposed to go like make everyone feel really good and be happy. whereas the more local firms and the regional firms and even like grant thornton, or mcgladrey that also did show up there, they, they showed up with like real people who were like, hey, you know, it’s kind of it’s busy right now, like, we have a deadline and a couple of weeks, because, you know, they brought some real tax people and they always did meet the firm’s in september and then be like it just telling you the truth, like, this is how it goes. but these are the fun things, they get to talk to people, they were just more real. and it wasn’t as you know, like,
donny shimamoto 07:18
you said, that was like, joined the board, because
liz mason 07:23
resistance is futile. but, ya know, it’s it was a very interesting approach. but of course, like our professors were all like, this is the way you do it. like you’re top of your class, you’re smart, you know, you’re like president a beta, alpha phi, or whatever you are. meanwhile, i was treasurer, beta, alpha psi, which we all know is like, if you’re the biggest nerd, you’re gonna be the treasurer of. yeah, um, you know, but it’s like, they tell you like, this is success. and that is the only definition of success and i foundationally disagree with that.
donny shimamoto 07:56
i definitely agree with you there. the thing that i found the value in the big four, because i don’t want to say that there’s not value there. the value in a career with the big four to me is if you’re going to end up being your goal is to either be a big four partner, or if it’s to be the cfo of a public company, because it’s so driven towards that, but i don’t think you can replace the exposure that you get and kind of so kind of echoing what byron was saying. because i was with a smaller office, we got to touch a lot of different things, a lot of different industries, you got to see a lot more, which really helped me figure out my place. well, what i ended up figuring out, i don’t like audit, i don’t like it audit either. and i wanted to be in consulting, but getting to work with the industries i figured out i really liked working with nonprofits and i really actually did a lot of government as well. made me figure out hey, i can actually make a difference in government to by helping and being more on the consulting side. yeah, yeah,
liz mason 08:57
good point.
byron patrick 08:58
it definitely is. and i you know, i was like, the opposite of losing college. i did not qualify for beta alpha psi, obviously, like the reject of like, my gpa wasn’t good enough. i didn’t do like our tax professor like sponsored the vita program, which i didn’t do that because i was busy doing other stuff. like there were so many things like so many boxes, i failed to check that like i literally like just felt like this scrub in college and all the professors were like big for big for like that was like they almost kept like a tally of how many of their students went big for because it was like they pumped their fist and they felt accomplished because of that. so it you know, for all those students out there that maybe aren’t the treasures of your beta alpha sighs like don’t be discouraged because, you know, there’s really great opportunities for everybody can coming out of schools?
liz mason 10:02
oh absolutely. i had a professor who sat me down and tell me a student’s go to top 10 firms, these students go to small local firms and see students go to the government. and if you get less than a c, you’ll never be a cpa. that’s why he sat down and told me and like, it stuck with me for a long time. and that like that was the measure of success that i was given, right as a student. and now, i mean, i ran a team of misfits, some of us came from top 10 firms something for some of us came from small local firms, some people went to industry and worked their butts off in industry and came up as, you know, amazing controller cfos. and now they want to spread that knowledge to more companies and help clients and kind of embark on the client service journey. but when you look at like the backgrounds of my friends in the accounting space, and the ones that i find most successful, byron being included, it does not always equate to big four, or top 10 firm or, you know, large international experience. it’s really dependent on what who you are as a person, first off, what you find happiness and enjoy it and and where success equals to you, because my definition of success is probably not the same as your definition of success, or, you know, anyone listening?
byron patrick 11:22
sure, i mean, you know, and it’s actually interesting you, as you were mentioning that two things came to my mind, one, my internship was not in public accounting, my internship was with a very large hotel and restaurant, conglomerate that was near my college, and, you know, it was kind of cool to actually get that exposure of, you know, the accounting related to, you know, 16 hotels, and five restaurants and everything that was going on there. and then also, you know, a newt metha, the past chair of aicpa, you know, he was never in public, he started out as an intern with ssai. and eventually, you know, retired from there as ceo. but that was, you know, a government contractor who, you know, worked close with the government. and, you know, he literally started out as an intern, and went all the way to the top of the, you know, billion dollar organization.
donny shimamoto 12:25
actually, if you, if you think about the change in focus in what we’re doing in accounting, today, it’s really this, this move into advisory. and if you only have this very narrow experience, which is what i’m hearing a lot now from those that are going into big four, or even in talking to people, the recruiters from the firms where people are trying to exit big four, and coming to the other firms that are in big four, you’re so focused and so narrow by by by design, because you have to get into the industry, you have to figure it out, that when you come out of that, it’s very hard to be able to look at other things. and as we go into the advisory side, the value that i think i bring as a consultant is that i’ve seen all of these businesses, i mean, the i think the longest audit i was on was maybe two or three weeks long, it’s not these year long things that you see with some of the big four, or they’re larger firms, it was two to three. so every year i saw a good 2030 companies and how they operated and what they were doing right and what they were doing wrong. and that’s what really gives me the value or the ability to go into other companies and say, hey, you might want to think about this, because i’ve seen this work on other places.
liz mason 13:40
yeah, i think there’s something to be said about breadth of experience. and also, if your definition of success is like highly specialized in something very particular, you know, finding a way to get to that team in a big four is going to give out to you, right? so it’s like, it depends on the individual and what people want. and it’s not, you know, all that my professor told me, and i’m sure professors are still telling students right now, which is if you’re an a student, you have to go that route. that’s just if you don’t have big four on your resume, nobody’s gonna hire you as a controller. that’s yes. i hired controllers every day. and most of them don’t have big four on their resume, and most of them are qualified to do extremely good things.
byron patrick 14:22
well, yeah, and, josh, i hadn’t even thought about it until you said it when you first said, you know, what your professor had had let out, like i’m thinking about, you know, those b and c students who aspired to go public. but, you know, i know some badass a students that actually went into government who and you know, i know you do to liz and like that are like, you know, doing big things in government. and that is just such an awful messaging employee. your professor said that.
liz mason 14:58
yeah, i mean, i’d have conversation with him now about it. but unfortunately, he passed away.
donny shimamoto 15:05
but you guys are also making me think so i was just at the national pipelines symposium and what the what was represented there was definitely much broader. so we had the aiga, the association of government accountants, we had the iaa, the institute of internal auditors, was represented the ima the institute of management accountants, and these are all additional career paths that are within the accounting profession as well. so it’s not like cpa is the only path, there’s all these other each of those has their own certification, some of the multiple certifications that they offer, where it’s, it’s definitely a valid alternate path. i don’t even know if i want to call it an alternate path, it’s an additional path. because there isn’t only one path, or even a primary path, i think the profession has become so broad, that we need to look at all of these other areas, and students should figure out, what are you passionate about? is it government service? is it? is it audit? is a tax on people might actually like that? or is it working with other types of businesses?
byron patrick 16:14
yeah, no doubt. and, you know, kind of to all of our stories, you’re not going to know until you get there. so like, don’t beat the heck out of yourself, like before you’ve ever arrived, trying to pick that path, just like go where it feels right. and, you know, without these stigmas of what maybe a professor has, as indicated, is supposed to be your path to success. and, you know, you just have to kind of like jump in and just get exposure to these different things. and something i’ll stick
donny shimamoto 16:51
i’m kind of curious to what you guys think about. you know, a lot of times when we talk about accounting and the accounting profession, we’re focused on accountants, so immediately people think it’s accountants, but there’s, i feel like our profession has really grown and expanded to become more inclusive of other professionals. because do is feel like that that’s actually happening? and is an accounting career perhaps also valid for people that aren’t accountants.
liz mason 17:24
but other professionals, do you mean?
donny shimamoto 17:27
i’m kind of looking byron’s a good example, with a lot of it in there. and so that overlap. and as we look at like cyber, and whether it’s cyber advisory or cyber assurance, right, sock reports, you know, that really leverages it and the it skills?
liz mason 17:45
oh, it absolutely does. but i think like holistically, there are a lot of different pieces of a business and a different different pieces of you know, what happens around accounting, including finance, and technology, treasury, you know, and the foundation we have with accounting programs gives us a really good insight to understand how that, you know, affects other things like my master’s degree is in technology, because, you know, i think you foundationally have to understand tech for the future of what we do, like we can’t do our jobs without utilizing and implementing secure and robust systems, right, like, it just doesn’t work. so i think you have to understand both to be successful for the future. and i know a lot of accounting programs have integrated information around those things. not all of them, but a lot of them have. you know, so so yeah, i think absolutely. anything that’s touching the numbers, technically, is in the realm of accountancy, even if it’s not directly accountants, right.
byron patrick 18:51
yeah, no doubt. one, there’s also, you know, it’s something else that where a lot of cpas also end up is in one of the many associations that’s supporting the profession. i mean, think about the number of cpas employed between, you know, all of the different associations, the aicpa that i mean, you can go through the list and, you know, there’s there are an incredible amount of people doing like really amazing things that have accounting paths, accounting tracks, and now they’re supporting the profession in maybe not a traditional accounting way, but in a way that that they get really excited about so i think there’s just like, it’s really difficult to box in, you know, somebody who starts out as a quote unquote, accountant, because there there are many, just different opportunities that get created.
liz mason 20:00
yeah, well, in our profession is huge, right? there’s like 670,000, cpas registered in the us alone. like, that’s ridiculous when you start thinking about that from a professional standard perspective, and that’s only people registered to cpas, that doesn’t include accountants that are not registered. and there are tons and dozens of those as well. because you know, as industry, you don’t necessarily need a cpa, it’s not a requirement to do the job well, or to learn the things you have to learn to do the job.
donny shimamoto 20:30
and when you bring up industry, that the trend we’re definitely seeing there is i think that the cfo also oversees hr oversees it. so having more of that broader view of things which might be achieved. liz, you did it through a master, i was a double major in accounting and information systems. so i did it early on, which also helped me meet my credit, our requirements to sit for the cpa exam as well. so if people start to double major and bring a diversity, some diversity of experience, because i’m also thinking like, even in marketing, now, you need to understand the numbers, the reporting, is the marketing effective, that’s all numbers related. so kind of being able to sit between that and leverage data analytics to look at effective those marketing campaigns, seeing some overlaps there.
liz mason 21:20
yeah, absolutely. and i do think like in school, you can get a lot of exposure. and like i did a double major in accounting and finance. and then i think i was one class shy of an econ minor, but mostly because i just found economics really fascinating. but i wasn’t willing to stay an extra semester to finish that. but yeah, you know, i think like getting exposure to all of those things is really vastly important. and ams statistics, like, the baseline of data analysis, and the baseline of understanding systems is understanding statistics.
byron patrick 21:54
well, and you know, one of the other like, paths that we haven’t talked about yet, i mean, both of you, well, i guess i fall in this too. but owner business entrepreneur ownership, i mean, there, there are so many accountants cpas, that go on to either establish their own firms or other businesses, i, i literally just listened to a how i built this podcast, like, i don’t know, two or three weeks ago, i think that the brand like v arrow or something like a men’s sports clothing brand, he was actually a big for cpa out of college, the founder there like it’s there is for people who think that in the future, that they may want to own a or operated business, you know, like the the accounting path really sets you up. and i’ll you know, kind of to your point earlier, donnie also gives you exposure to a lot of what’s going on out there and also educates you on what not to do. a lot of times too.
liz mason 23:08
yeah, absolutely. it does. and i think, you know, to further that point, like, accounting is the lifeblood of a business, right? if you don’t foundationally understand the numbers are the finance side of it. and it’s very difficult to run a business well. and we have a lot of clients that don’t have accounting backgrounds, and they hire us because they need that advice to even be able to profitably grow their businesses or keep them afloat in some cases.
donny shimamoto 23:38
let’s just talk about the numbers. i think the other part that people don’t realize is a big part of our profession is this understanding of risk and controls, which goes beyond just finance. so how do you actually assess risk and understand risk and quantify risk? whether that that’s kind of getting some back into the numbers? and then how do you effectively mitigate that risk through the design of controls? because when i think about the advisory work that i do, a lot of what we’re doing is helping our clients be more successful? and with that, it’s what initiatives are you planning? and let’s figure out where the risks and those initiatives are, whether they’re technology related people related change in business, new business, and let’s figure out how much risk you’re comfortable taking, in which case, then if we if there’s more risk than you’re comfortable with, let’s figure out how we actually mitigate that risk. and what do we need to implement to be sure that either way you’re successful in the end? no doubt.
liz mason 24:38
so i would circle that back to anyone graduating from school and trying to figure out what they’re going to do and that when you approach the career path that you’re thinking about, think about how do you measure success? and how do you measure the risks associated with getting to that success? and which path gives you the most direct the most direct path there and allah mitigates the risk associated with it, right? and really think about it as a plan, a strategic plan, like you’re taught to think about in school, right? versus a, okay, my, the advice i’m getting is do this and take the highest dollar amount offer i can potentially get, because that’ll lead to the most success in life. well, that’s not true. it just depends on your path and how you define that and what you’re looking at.
donny shimamoto 25:28
well said, i’m going to caveat that, because you said the most direct path and i think part of byron’s message though, was, you might not know your path, you might have to meander and try different things out and figure out what it is that you actually do like, and i actually feel like my career was actually the same because i did a little bit of financial stuff it live of consulting little bit of traditional it. and then from there, i figured out that i really want it to be an advisory. so whether you’re that direct, maybe that’s the a student got your whole plan, this is your whole life, and you’re gonna go in that direction. or you’re kind of figuring it out. either way, that foundation of accounting is so important for anything you want to do. yeah, yeah.
byron patrick 26:10
yeah, i think, you know, in my case, i actually took what i thought was the direct path, because i wanted to be a partner in a firm, and i thought, like a local cpa firm was the right like, direct path for me to get to partner. so so my caveat to it is just be open to change course. you know,
liz mason 26:32
yeah. yeah. and like, what, let it go with you? i mean, i think, you know, you definitely kind of nailed me a little bit there, donnie, in that i am a very motivated, individual. and i am extremely ambitious. and i definitely have my sights on different things and go for it. right. so yeah, for me, like focusing on a direct path is important. but i also have entrepreneurship in my blood, right. so like, my whole family was entrepreneurs. and i grew up in businesses and understanding, like, what that means and what that looks like. and i think ultimately, i knew i’m not going to fit in any company long term, because i have way too many ideas, and i don’t fit in boxes well, and so you know, my goal was get really great broad base experience and build my own thing from that. and that’s what i’ve done. and, you know, some days, i think it’s wildly successful. some days, i think i’m a complete failure. but i think that’s the the path of entrepreneurship. right. so i’ve chosen that for myself. but i think, you know, each individual has to think what keeps them happy, and how do they define success? and i think, for me, it was a goal for a lot of people. it’s, you know, interesting work, good working hours getting to travel. you know, there’s different measures of success than just like the traditional old school financial and title.
donny shimamoto 27:53
oh, no. so i think our final answer ended up being it depends.
liz mason 27:58
yeah, there’s always
donny shimamoto 28:01
there’s not just one path, it depends on what your what your goals are, what you want is success. but knowing and embracing that unknown, i think is so key. and that’s what the foundation that auditing, excuse me, accounting gave to all of us, is really being able to have to build it to figure it out and then pursue our dreams.
liz mason 28:22
no, no, yeah. and keep focusing on that every day. it’s like, okay, what can i eliminate? that doesn’t bring me joy? what can i add in my life that i think is really interesting and gets me closer to this goal.
donny shimamoto 28:36
with that sage advice, i think we should wrap today. so thanks, everyone, for listening, and i hope you’ve figured out your path to success. thanks, guys.