carla mccall: find your authentic leadership style | gear up for growth

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gear up for growth
with jean caragher
for 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间

in the latest episode of gear up for growth, carla mccall, cpa, cgma, managing partner of aaf cpas, and chair of the aicpa, shares valuable insights into leadership transitions within cpa firms. as the industry faces a generational shift—with 75% of current cpas expected to retire in the next 15 years—mccall’s experience highlights the importance of planning for the next wave of firm leadership.

mccall recounts her journey, beginning when she joined aaf in 1995, becoming a partner in 2003 and eventually a co-managing partner in 2011. she emphasizes the importance of having a firm-wide succession mindset, where every leader is responsible for mentoring and developing their potential successor. one key factor in aaf’s smooth transition was a structured managing partner in training program designed to prepare future leaders for the complexities of running a cpa firm.

mccall reflects on her challenges in building trust and influence as a new leader. she stresses that leadership goes beyond simply holding a title—it requires earning respect through authenticity, feedback, and focusing on helping others succeed. her journey to sole managing partner in 2020 demonstrated the power of aligning leadership around vision and strategy while empowering operational leaders to make day-to-day decisions.

mccall’s advice to cpa firm leaders? start succession planning early, foster a culture of candid feedback, and align your team around a shared vision. with the right mindset and preparation, transitioning leadership can lead to a stronger, more resilient firm.

key takeaways

1. titles alone don’t make someone a leader; building trust and influence through actions, feedback, and authentic leadership is essential for success in any leadership role.
2. self-awareness and self-reflection are key to discovering authentic leadership style that will enable you to effectively lead and inspire your team.
3. firms must plan for leadership transitions early, both at the managing partner level and throughout the organization. a culture of succession ensures that future leaders are prepared to take over when needed.
4. carla shared how candid feedback from colleagues pushed her to evolve her leadership style, highlighting the importance of listening and adapting based on feedback.
5. putting people before profits leads to happier clients and overall firm success.
6. transitioning leadership from a founder to the next generation can be emotionally and structurally difficult. carla recommended external support to help guide firms through the process.
7. having the right leaders in the right roles and ensuring the entire firm is aligned with the organization’s vision and strategy drives growth.
8. while some people may naturally possess leadership qualities, some can develop leadership skills through mentoring, self-reflection, and feedback, making it possible for people to grow into leadership roles.

transcript
(produced by automation. not edited for spelling or grammar.)

jean caragher  00:04

hello, welcome to gear up for growth powered by 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间 research. i’m jean caragher, president of capstone marketing and your host. this episode is focused on transitioning leadership in cpa firms. our guest is carla mccall, managing partner of aaf cpas, a 350-person cpa and consulting firm with three offices in massachusetts. carla is also chair of the american institute of certified public accountants. her list of accolades is as long as my arm, so i won’t mention them now, but be sure to visit aacpa.com for more information. carla, welcome to gear up for growth.

 

carla mccall  00:46

thanks, jean, happy to be here.

 

jean caragher  00:49

so let’s set the stage for today’s show. the aicpa has reported that 75% of today’s cpas in public accounting will retire in the next 15 years, and cpas in smaller practices are not seeing that next generation take over their accounting practices, so this is driving them to close their practice or to sell off their accounting practice. and this whole situation sheds a light on the need for strong leadership in cpa firms, and identifying that next generation of leaders, right? so let’s talk about your experience. i know you joined aaf in 2003 and then in 2011 your firm founder, herb alexander, retired, and that leadership was transferred to you and david mcmanus. so give us a little background. you know about your experience of when that happened?

 

carla mccall  01:56

sure. i mean, i joined aaf in 1995 actually, and became a partner in 2003 and, yeah, sat in a managing partner seat in 2011 and and honestly, when i joined the firm, i wasn’t really thinking about leadership. but as as my time went on in the firm, you know, herb said it’s really i need to think. i need to think about succession. now, the one thing about herb alexander that you need to know is he always had the firm at the center of everything that we do. so it was firm before individual interest, right? and his desire was to let the legacy that he created, he founded the firm succeed well beyond him. so he was not interested in selling the firm or and the next gen leadership was really important. so that’s sort of you have to have that desire to begin with, right? and so he decided that we need, i need to think about this and ask for people who were interested. and of course, i was interested at that time, having been a partner now for a while, and having as a as a partner, created things to improve the environment. so i created our first i became the part first, i became the partner in charge of staff development. so i was a key liaison as a new partner to the staff to try and bridge that gap between the partner expectations and employee expectations, and then created our women’s opportunity network and and diversity initiatives and a whole host of things. and i think that create me creating all this really led me to think about leading the firm. so i threw my hat in the ring, and he created a managing partner in training program, and pitt is what we refer to it at the time, and it was supposed to be a three year long process where people you know who are interested in the role would meet with him on a regular basis because it was important for him to to let the future leader know it’s not all roses being you know the managing partner like you need to understand what we deal with on a day to day basis. it’s not. and so we got to see sort of the other side of leadership that you might not see on it. so it was a very, very good process. and it after two years, he said it was time. so we didn’t go the full three years. it actually ended a year early, and it was his recommendation to go from a managing partner to co managing partner model. and to be honest, at the time, i didn’t agree with it. you know, his view was that i spent my life and missed a lot in my life doing this, and there’s a lot to manage, and it really should be done by two people. and so, you know, but we are very close partner group, and dave and i, you know, are very close and have been good friends. and so, you know, his recommendation to the shareholder group at the time was dave and i to co lead. and we, you know. precisely accepted. and the way that it sort of evolved was my skill set is vision, strategy, decision making, leadership, and dave’s skill set is very detail oriented, so he’s more operational. and so we had a, we had a a nice division of strengths that made us a good team, right?

 

jean caragher  05:26

yeah, each had your own set of skills that you could put together to make the whole

 

carla mccall  05:31

yes, which was great and in hindsight, so i always think it’s important to be reflective on your journey in hindsight, it was a good idea because we also had a navigate a founder transition, which is, we could do a whole podcast on that jean, but it is difficult, right? this is their baby. they built it. they started it. it’s, you know, just part of who they are. and so, rightfully so, it’s a difficult transition, and so to have two of us at the table, navigating that was extremely helpful. so even though herb alexander recognized that he needed the leadership to follow him, the firm would continue on, you know, and part of his legacy,emotionally, and in other ways, it’s still very difficult to make that change happen.

 

jean caragher  06:30

yes,

 

carla mccall  06:35

after that, but i know, yeah. i mean it is. i mean, if you can think about it, and

 

jean caragher  06:39

i think acknowledgement of it is really important, acknowledging that it’s hard, and acknowledging feelings and acknowledging, you know, and to go through that transition, you have to be open and honest and candid, and you have to have that relationship.

 

carla mccall  06:56

we have a lot of gratitude for herb, because he was very generous with us as an owner of a firm. you know, he sold equal shares. those of us that were in the first 10 shareholders, you know, he sold equal shares to us. nobody usually does that. they they keep all the equity at the top, and then takes you a long, long time to earn up. and he, he what he started the firm as is. he wanted collaboration at the highest level, the partner level. and so he wanted it to be, you know, equal and and fair, and that we, you know, all boats rise, if you will. and so we had a lot of gratitude for him for that. and so we wanted to make the transition process as as as seamless as as possible.

 

07:44

so

 

jean caragher  07:44

so what so during this transition, what was the biggest challenge that you encountered?

 

carla mccall  07:53

well, i guess it’s you know, for me, regardless of you know, whether it was co managing partner. managing partner was really as a new leader. you have to build influence, that’s you know, and and just having a title or a position doesn’t make you a leader. you have to earn the trust and the and the respect of the team that you’re leading. and i really found and and i didn’t know it was going to be that hard, because when i first sat in the seat, i only saw managing partners make decisions. they made all the decisions right. and so i entered as a managing partner being very this is the decision, and thinking i had to make every decision. and it wasn’t really until i did some self reflection and that i realized that i wasn’t leading authentically to myself, and i had to find my authentic leadership style, and then it was a game changer for me to build influence with the team. but it was rough at first.

 

jean caragher  08:59

wow. so how did you find that authentic leadership?

 

carla mccall  09:03

i know so well. first of all, it was, it’s that we have a culture of candid feedback in our firm. and i did get some candid feedback, and there was a manager i still had a book of business at the time. so early on in leadership, it’s very common. you have to work your book down over time once you become a managing partner. and i was working with a manager, and she came into my office and she said, i we, we’re going over a job. and at the end, she said, i can i give you some feedback? and i said, yes, absolutely, because i do really feel feedback is a gift, and i’ve always tried not to take it personally and really sort of self reflect and improve. and she said, people don’t want to approach you you are brutal in meetings and all this stuff, and they just don’t want to ask you any questions and all these things. and so there’s a little bit more detail there, but i basically said, thank you very much. and that threw me into my very first period of self reflection. i am was a hard charger. uh, you know, trying to climb the corporate ladder and move ahead, and i wasn’t taking any time to sort of reflect on my journey. and i took some time to reflect on my journey, and that sent me into a period of soliciting feedback and realizing, you know, i maybe my partners felt the same way. and what i learned after getting feedback was that i wasn’t listening to alternative points of view, and that i was trying to drive my agenda, because in my mind, that’s what i saw happen before me, right? and so it’s like managing partners make decisions, and we have to make decisions, and you know what’s right? and all this stuff. and sometimes it’s also you’re in you’re in a you’re in a seat where you have vision. not everybody else has vision, and so you can see the end point, but not everybody does. so i ended up changing my style. i was i listened more and spoke less, and started to more talk through scenarios and opportunities, and completely shifted my leadership style. and my partners will tell you that they absolutely agree. they saw that. they will also tell you i’m a better leader than an audit partner.

 

jean caragher  11:12

i think that is such an important story that you just shared because receiving feedback is is great when you hear, oh, you did a fantastic job doing this, and you are so good at whatever that is, but when the negative stuff comes, of course, that’s a lot harder, you know, to accept. so your point of being willing to reflect on that and recognize that there was something in your style you needed to change, and you did it everybody listening or watching. i mean, please pay attention to that, because that’s an opportunity for every one of us to take a look at, you know, our our current situations, and you know how they might be even better. so let’s take a little bit of a jump. so in 2011 that was the co managing partner situation. and then in 2020 of all years, carla, 2020 you became the sole managing partner. so yeah, was that transition different in any way from becoming co managing partners? yes, becoming souls. so tell us a little bit about how that was different.

 

carla mccall  12:32

it was easy. it was easier. i can tell you that. so the way dave and i, you know, led the led the firm like i told you, we play to our own skill set. so i was more vision and strategy. i kept an external view. i was very involved in the mass iacpa as it got me a seat on aicpa council, and so i was able to bring a lot of how we’ve transitioned our firm and transformed our firm from just being a compliance firm of audit and tax to what it is today, which is, you know, a cpa and consulting firm, and and dave was on the operational side. but as you grow, you also enhance your c suite, right? and you have more professional leadership in a firm when you’re smaller, the partners are doing it all, and that, we went through that evolution. and dave was also leading our our cannabis practice, which was in major growth mode. and so it was an organic shift, uh, dave and i came together and i said, listen, this just there’s a lot of duplication of effort because on vision and strategy, i always felt like, okay, now i gotta get him up to feed and then agree, and then, and it was just sort of an organic evolution that he was like, you’re right, you know, we have the c suite to run these other operational areas, and you’re the vision and the strategy. so it makes sense. so we went to the shareholder group together and said, you know, it’s time to sort of make a change. and have, you know, one managing partner because of all these reasons. and so it was a much, i’d say, more organic and much more sort of seamless transition. founder. transitions are hard. you know, one recommendation i would make for firms that are going through that is, is hire someone from the outside to help you navigate it. we didn’t. and when you have someone who has such deep appreciation, you know, it’s hard then to really look at what that looks like from a business perspective, because emotions get involved,

 

jean caragher  14:33

right? i can imagine, yeah, especially, you know, as you were referring, you know, this was a firm that, you know, herb built, and you know, this was his legacy, you know, for his life. so there’s a lot tied to that, for sure. in either of these transitions, leadership transitions that you did, what criteria or what needed to happen in order for those. transitions to be successful, to have made them work.

 

carla mccall  15:05

what needed to happen for the transitions to work right?

 

jean caragher  15:09

or were there certain items in play that enabled those transitions to be successful? you said the transition was harder, the transition to sole managing partner was easier, but i guess what i’m looking for is like, what what needed to be in place?

 

carla mccall  15:27

yeah? well, i guess yeah. so there needs to be planning and process and alignment of the of the partner group, for sure. and so i think it’s important for firms to have to think about succession. i mean, we need to think about succession, not only in managing partner, but throughout the entire company, right? so we have this mindset of everybody’s in a mode, everybody, no matter what level you are, your job is to find your successor, right? so even if you’re a senior, you need to build someone up to take your seat so you can move up, right? so it’s this succession mindset. but when it comes to managing partner, i think aligning around process and what that looks like is important. and so that’s when we, at the time, going from the founder, we said, okay, we’re going to create this managing partner and training program. this is what’s going to look like. and so everybody was sort of bought into the process and what it was. and that’s why, when it came to the decision and herb’s recommendation, you know, people knew what we had gone through, and then, you know, it made it a lot easier. i also think that you know that. so the planning and then the process is important in alignment, as what i said. so i guess getting the the partners aligned on, on what this looks like. how is a decision going to be made? you know, they want to know, are they going to have a say? are they not going to have a say? you know, what does that look like? think that’s all.

 

jean caragher  16:53

how hard was that? how hard was getting that alignment?

 

carla mccall  16:57

yeah, you know, it wasn’t. it’s funny. it wasn’t really that hard. i remember when we went to the vote and herb recommended the co managing partner and everybody voted. it was almost like a non events.

 

jean caragher  17:06

wow, okay.

 

carla mccall  17:07

and, and same when we went to man it, when we went to managing partner. and i, you know, because dave and i were aligned on it, the questions that came up in our meeting, to be honest, was, well, is it, is it too much for one person, and what if we want to go back to a coma managing partner level? because there’s a lot of uncertainty in change in leadership, and like i said, you really as a leader, you need to build influence. you need to build trust. and if you build trust, you you can build influence. and that comes from, you know, just consistent behavior and helping others and having successes, and it takes some time to build that.

 

17:50

that.

 

jean caragher  17:51

yeah, right, right. in one of your prior interviews, i read that you felt, what has made you most successful as a managing partner is building a people first culture and setting that right tone at the top. and there’s a lot being written and spoken about cpa firm culture these days, for for many reasons, you know, not only but for private equity and mergers and other things i’ve got, i’ve got a couple of questions related to that. so the culture of the firm with the founding managing partner, and then through these transitions, was the culture at af continuing the same? or did you see it maybe change a little bit because of leadership or because of growth or other reasons?

 

carla mccall  18:56

so what so the dna of our firm is hasn’t changed, okay? the dna of the firm is always well, is the client, client service. we need to rally around the client. you know, clients are clients of the firm, not individual partners. the partners have this really tight, you know, because the way he created us somewhat equal, right? and it was like we were all aligned and sort of rowing in the same direction, and we had a huge commitment to giving back and community service, and that’s always been in our dna. but what i will say, and this isn’t just a af, this is my perception of the profession. i was in another firm before i joined aaf. it was always client, first firm, second, individual, third. and what i wanted to create was individual, first client, second, firm, third. and the reason for that, and i built our whole vision and strategy around this, is because if you have happy people, you will have happy clients. clients, and you have, if you have both of those, the firm will be successful. and so i always felt like de prioritizing employees, wants, needs, expectations, thoughts. wasn’t, you know that just telling them what to do and not involving them, you know, wasn’t great. and when i think back to all the things that i have established and created here, which led me, i think, to a leadership seat, because i, you know, roll up my sleeves and i’ll and i’ll create things that were very valuable to the firm. you know, i wanted to change that. and so when you’re smaller, managing partners make all the decisions. i think as you grow there’s sort of an evolution. but i knew i wanted to make it people over profit versus profit over people, whether you can argue whether that’s a good business decision or not, but that’s just the dna of our firm,

 

jean caragher  20:55

right, right? that’s wonderful. so we’ve talked a little bit about your leadership style  and how going from co managing partners to sole managing partner, you know, change things, and when you again, when you think about those transitions, and not only your leadership, but leadership on the part of your partners, how does, how does that leadership style impact other areas of your firm? you mentioned before, you know, operationally, you know you’ve got that bigger seat suites when you think about operations and marketing or recruiting or technology and all those other things. how does that leadership style impact those other areas?

 

carla mccall  21:38

well, i mean, i’m a big believer in having the right butt in the right seat, and we haven’t always had that. and so for a managing partner to get out of the weeds, if you will, and get out of the day to day operations, i used to make every decision as a managing partner when i first was in the seat, like they would come to me and say, what kind of food do you want at the holiday party, right? and i would just answer and when weigh in and you come to this moment where you’re like, this is nuts. this is not the highest, best use of my time, but you also need leaders in those in those in the i’ll call them infrastructure departments, right? that that are leaders, right? they’re decision makers. they have vision strategy, they inspire their teams, and all of that. we didn’t always have that. but what i realized quickly is that if you have the right button, the right seat, they will and you meet on a periodic basis. so we have a senior leadership team group, okay, managing partner now it’s a coo. i used to run them our coo runs them now and and basically the c suite of all our departments that meet on a regular basis and getting alignment. so when what they need to hear from me is, what’s our vision, what’s our strategy? where are our pain points? what are we trying to accomplish? and so when we refreshed our firm strategy in 20, in 2020, you know, meeting with them to say, this is our vision. how do you go from where we are today to 100 million? i need you all to go back and think about your own departments. what does that look like? what does that look like with use of technology? what does that look like with offshoring? what does that look like with humans? so we can plan, and if they know what we’re all working toward, then we can all have some alignment and really increase the communication, which sometimes in firms, isn’t great between departments, but if you’re going to scale at growth, you all need to be on the same page, right?

 

jean caragher  23:30

yeah, for sure, for sure. and that goes back to that word alignment that you used earlier. you need to make sure that everybody’s aligned along with that vision and the strategy that you’re going to be executing, and that you don’t have the lone rangers out there, you know, doing what they feel is best and not best for the firm.

 

carla mccall  23:47

oh yes, i can’t even put an exclamation point big enough on the fact that you have to row in the same direction, right? you have to have everybody growing in the same direction, and that’s how you’ll really accelerate growth. and we and i think it’s just from the dna from day one. we just do that brilliantly here.

 

24:05

okay, i’ve just

 

jean caragher  24:07

okay, i’ve just got a couple more questions, and we talked a little bit about this earlier. so there are some leadership theories that focus on the view that leaders are born and not made, that people just have inherently, they’re naturally born with these leadership skills, and some aren’t born with those. and then others recognize that leaders may be born made and not born, right? so the opposite view, right? and if you’re giving your team, you know consistent, you know skill building and mentoring to become leaders, they can people that are not born leaders can be made leaders. which, which side do you fall on?

 

carla mccall  24:58

hmm, well, listen, i think there’s, i think there’s a little bit of i think there’s a little bit of both. here we do type coach in our firm. it’s a form of myers briggs, and it’s our natural language. here, we’ve been doing it for years. so i’m an entp and nt is big picture thinker visionary, not so much in the details you might have sensor judges, sjs, that are less that are more detail oriented and can’t naturally connect the dots on things from like a vision or strategy standpoint. good firms have a diversity of all of the types, and there’s 16 different types, right? so i think people who have a personality profile of intuitive, that’s the end in the profile, are probably more natural for leadership. but it doesn’t mean that people can’t flex to leadership, right? so, you know, that’s why i say i think it’s an element of both. i think it comes easier for certain people that might have that intuitive muscle, and for people that don’t, it might not come as naturally, but it doesn’t mean they can’t flex. because it really depends on where you are on the spectrum. i do think that you know the really the most important when it comes to leadership is is, you know, eq is very important, you know, because it’s about inspiring people as a leader, whether you’re in a department, whether you’re leading a firm, whether you’re leading an engagement team, you need to really build trust and inspire others and and some of it now i talk about aq adaptability quotient. there’s so much change in our profession that you really need to be good with change management and how to adapt to what’s happening. and so i don’t really, i guess, stand in one camp or the other. jean, right?

 

jean caragher  26:59

yeah, i would agree with you also, because i also think that there are folks who don’t believe they have leadership potential, and other people see it in them,

 

carla mccall  27:11

and really good point

 

27:13

and

 

jean caragher  27:13

and to mentor and help that person who bring out those skills, i think sometimes people cut themselves short, you know, with what they’re capable of doing,

 

carla mccall  27:23

i totally agree with you, and i think some of that has to do with confidence, and i think some of that has to do with them understanding what does influence mean. i had someone in my firm, a director, come to me say, you know, i want to know how to build influence. and i said, or how do i know when i have influence? and i said, well, you know, you need to really where i’ve built my influence is helping other people. it’s one of my core passions. i love to help other people be successful. and when you’re helping other people and they get they’re successful with your ideas, or you’re supporting them, or whatever, you’re building trust, they come back to you. they seek your advice, that’s when you know that you built influence. and i told her, you have influence. in fact, you have influence with me, because i will not publish anything without you laying eyes on it, and i’m always reaching out to you and asking your opinion. you have influence. and so sometimes it’s somewhat of confidence and just owning your strengths,

 

jean caragher  28:20

right, right. okay. okay. so final question, if you could give one piece of advice to firm leaders going through similar transitions that you have, what would that?

 

carla mccall  28:36

oh, my gosh. well, one of the things i wish i had, i have a personal advisory board. right now, there’s eight managing partners in different firms around the country, and we’ve been together for a long time. they did this did not exist for me when i was going through the transition. if i had them, i think it would have been a much easier process. so my suggestion, aside from sort of the planning and the process and figuring out what you want. you know, if you truly want to transition leadership to the next gen, right, some firms don’t,

 

jean caragher  29:09

yeah, yeah, because, you know, i’ve been thinking also, you know, of these opportunities that i, i believe there are some firm leaders that haven’t identified that next generation of leadership because they haven’t looked, you know, they’re so focused on being the leader, they haven’t looked for that leadership. and then others may truly be without it,

 

carla mccall  29:31

and that’s true, just you can’t wait too late like you have to figure that out, because if you don’t have it, if you could merge into a larger firm while you still have some runway. it’s much easier transition than waiting till you’re 60, 65. i mean, you have to really start thinking about this earlier. it’s way more successful if you can merge in with a runway for leadership than building it in. but that’s sort of a core question, do i want to, you know, transition, leadership, or, you know, what is my, what is my exit look like,

 

jean caragher  30:07

right, right? and i hope i didn’t cut you off because you were talking about your personal, what did you call it?

 

carla mccall  30:14

a personal advisory board? yeah, yeah. so that was the point. is getting a peer group and some support. and then, you know, if you’re a founder, you know, i, you know, i highly suggest using an external consultant to sort of navigate some of those conversations, because it can be tricky, right?

 

jean caragher  30:29

wonderful. okay, so i lied. i’ve got a bonus question,

 

carla mccall  30:33

yeah,

 

jean caragher  30:35

where is your favorite vacation spot?

 

carla mccall  30:38

oh my gosh. so my our family’s favorite, because we travel every year as a family, we pick somewhere different. our favorite so far has been abaco bahamas. oh, i know it’s so strange, but i will say we were there before the hurricane wiped out abaco. they have rebuilt. are starting to rebuild, but we went to this place called the bahama beach club there. it was just so amazing. the people the water, it was quiet. there’s not a lot going on. so if you want a real decompress, but you could charter boats go to different islands. i mean, it was the most beautiful vacation that that we’ve had, and we’ve been in the caribbean and hawaii. i mean, hawaii would be i mean, hawaii was great too. but i think this one struck us because it was different. it wasn’t built up like all of the other places you go. you can go to maui and stuff, but it was just much more intimate.

 

jean caragher  31:31

oh, that sounds fabulous, yeah. oh, gosh. well, i have been speaking today with carla mccall, managing partner of aafcpas and chair of the aicpa. thank you, carla, for all your thoughts and insights. i appreciate it very much.

 

carla mccall  31:50

oh, my pleasure. jane. have a great day. thanks,

 

jean caragher  31:53

and thank you for tuning in for gear up for growth. be sure to check us out next time when we focus on another topic for accounting firms that want to aim for smart growth in today’s competitive landscape. i’ll see you then.