accounting is what we do. it is not who we are.
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the disruptors
with liz farr
jina etienne wants accountants to stop hiding behind our green eyeshades and all the stereotypes we share as cpas. she practices “fearless inclusion,” which is the freedom to be yourself and to create the space for others to do the same.
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“inclusion happens because of how i show up and the space i make for others,” etienne said. she added that the fearless part means we need to be brave and bold while also interacting with others thoughtfully. when we show our personalities and our humanity, “that fixes a lot of things, actually,” she explained.
etienne breaks diversity, equity, and inclusion into decoupled terms. diversity is the demographic composition of a group, the differences between us. “inclusion is the intention around the space that organizations want to create,” she said, adding it’s not about solving the challenges for someone but about “creating a space where none of that matters. and that person can contribute without barriers or holding back or hiding.”
equity is the bridge between diversity and inclusion. it means identifying the barriers that exist for one group but not for another and adjusting those. equity is related to fairness, but it doesn’t mean everyone is treated equally. another important and related concept is belonging, which is the feeling of connection and acceptance that we have in our organizations.
besides what most of us think about when we consider dei – skin color, gender identity, nationality, and disabilities – jina stresses the diversity of our profession. “the opportunities are endless. you can be in so many industries, and so many businesses, and so many roles,” she said. our profession is changing, with new skill sets and other credentials coming into firms, and many roles no longer requiring a cpa, all “so we can still provide holistic services to our clients,” etienne said.
this diversity – and our essential importance to businesses – means that accounting is “almost like the best kept secret as far as professions go,” she said, asking, “can you imagine how diverse the talent that we could attract if the talent knew there was so much more to this profession than the faces you see on the front of the brochures of cpa firms?”
etienne said she is seeing progress in gender equity and diversity in the profession as a result of decades of work. “i’m seeing that women are being invited to partnerships with equity. you can make partner as a woman and not have to work a full-time schedule. men can take parental leave and not be judged by their peers.”
diversity drives innovation in the workplace. the different perspectives and different opinions that a diverse team has are the “differences that actually spark innovation. we know that diverse teams make better decisions,” she said.
11 more takeaways from jina etienne
- diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging – deib – is often considered an hr function. but while hr can recruit and hire for diversity, it’s the job of leadership to create a culture that keeps that diverse workforce in place.
- it’s better for organizations to commit to diversity and inclusion and to try and figure out how to implement it, and sometimes fail and sometimes succeed, than to say they’re committed, but do nothing at all.
- diversity and inclusion isn’t just about attracting minority talent. it’s about attracting all talent. the majority of job seekers say that demonstrating a commitment to diversity and inclusion is important in accepting a job.
- the auditor mentality of wanting to provide an unqualified opinion so we don’t cause problems seeps into our mindset as accountants. we seek to be invisible and unobtrusive and not to bring our own opinions into our work.
- bringing our whole self to work and authenticity are a bit of a myth. how do we measure these in co-workers? what are our expectations? are we revealing our own biases? we may only want to bring to work what we feel comfortable bringing to work.
- as long as we’re not pretending, we’re being authentic.
- the millennial leadership model looks more holistically at people. they’re more collaborative. they’re going to start driving changes around culture, leadership and operating models.
- the skills we need to be successful in the future are the skills we need to become better humans: building trust, self-awareness, empathy, vulnerability and cultural literacy are just a few.
- the sense of connection a person has with their firm, and the sense of trust in their team comes down to that person’s relationship with their manager, not with partners or hr. a firm might be doing amazing work in d&i, but none of that matters if the manager is a jerk.
- the beauty of diversity happens when clashing worldviews come together to hash things out and come up with something better than either one could have done alone.
- when someone says, “i don’t see color or gender,” that disrespects and dismisses important parts of identity. we need to evolve beyond our mindset of invisibility as accountants. if we refuse to recognize this evolution, that’s a barrier to change.
more about jina etienne
jina etienne, cpa, cgma, cde®, believes being truly seen is the most daring thing you can do. as a ceo, jina serves her diverse clients with care, creativity and courage, relishing the development of experiences and services that free audiences and extend beyond the moment. throughout her career, her efforts have made enduring impressions that led to profound positive impacts on the lives of thousands. etienne is a results-oriented leader with proven success in serving diverse clients, developing unique products and services, and creating value for customers, stakeholders and team members. previous roles include director – diversity & inclusion, grant thornton (gt), president & ceo of the national association of black accountants, inc. (naba), and principal consultant at etiennepartners (ep), a boutique consulting firm that offered strategy development, workshops & coaching to leaders, executives and entrepreneurs. at gt, jina managed the firm’s diversity & inclusion (d&i) team responsible for developing and implementing gt’s firm-wide d&i strategy. at naba, she was responsible for strategic direction, stakeholder relationships, organizational priorities, and managing the day-to-day operation of the association and its staff. learn more at www.etienneconsulting.com.
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
liz farr 00:03
welcome to accounting disrupter conversations. i’m your host liz farr from 卡塔尔世界杯常规比赛时间. my guest today is jina etienne, founder and principal consultant at etienne consulting. welcome to the show, jina.
jina etienne 00:21
thank you. and thank you for having me. i’m excited for today’s conversation.
liz farr 00:26
well, i’m excited to have you here. now we’ve got a lot to cover. so i’m just gonna jump right in. now your work centers on diversity, equity and inclusion. what did those mean to you?
jina etienne 00:44
that is a great place to start. because too often people think this work. everybody knows what we mean. so the way i define them are one, i want to encourage everyone to completely decouple them. because we hear diversity and inclusion, almost as a word. okay, so diversity, difference. it’s about the demographics, it’s about the composition. and the way i like to describe it is candy. i used to use m&ms, but i think skittles is a better example. so if you take a bag of skittles and dump it out, maybe in a bowl, not all over your table, there are lots of different colors. and, but we know that they’re pretty much the same, right. but if you close your eyes and pop one in your mouth, you can generally tell the flavor. but it’s a very subtle difference, the candy overall tastes about the same. and so those differences, the fact that it is difference, the differences are subtle, sometimes visual, sometimes not. that’s diversity. inclusion. inclusion is the intention around the space organizations want to create. it’s not this idea that you can just be inclusive because people can’t put together a commitment to diversity and inclusion. and then now we’re inclusive, because it doesn’t work that way. but we can have an intention, we can work toward a space that we want to envision for our organization. so you have the compositional differences, the demographics, and you have the space that you want to create the bridge between those two is where equity comes in. and equity, i think a lot of people confuse it with fairness. and equity, and fairness aren’t interchangeable words, although they’re related. so equity is really about finding the barriers that might exist for one group and not for another, or imbalances and a process and adjusting those. so that there aren’t barriers so that everyone has what they need to have the same shot at an outcome. and the challenge there is that when you give one group some support, it can often seem like if the expectation of fairness is we all get the same thing. it can seem like favoritism. when in fact, what we’re trying to do is level the playing field. so getting the same thing for every one is sometimes equitable. and then sometimes it’s unfair. so it’s inequitable. so it just depends, but understanding that principle is important. how it manifested in organizations will be completely different organization to organization, sometimes department to department, team to team and help.
liz farr 04:02
that helps a lot. you know, a lot of times people just look at this as an hr checklist item. and just for hiring people who look different. but it sounds like it’s a lot more than just that.
jina etienne 04:22
no, it absolutely is. and you know, i want to go back and add another word, and that’s belonging. and because we talk about d, e, i, and now we’re hearing more organizations talk about d e, i b and belonging to differentiate it is the experience i have working at the organization. connecting with my colleagues working with clients. it’s that feeling of connection and acceptance. and so that’s belonging. now when you think about hr’s role when it comes to any strategic plan or any action plan, any change that an organization wants to drive, administratively, somebody has to lead it. somebody has to track progress, somebody has to do like the fun reports on how well we’re doing. you know, that’s just, none of us really want to do that. but somebody has to do it. and anything a company wants to implement and be successful at, they’re gonna have a plan of action. well, the same is true for diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. and for simple sake, we’ll call it deib. and is that often hr? and that’s because hr is where the people things are. and this work is all about the people in the organization. so it makes sense. but is it hr’s responsibility? no. everybody should be involved. all departments, all levels, all roles. once a plan is developed, yeah, you can have hr, monitor that plan, track progress, ensure accountability, that kind of thing. hr does recruiting. so one of the big things about creating a more diverse workforce is hiring in diversity. and so that’s where a lot of people think hr is is most important. and that is absolutely an important role. and we know today that war for talent is real. yeah. so you can hire people all you want. the biggest thing is retention now too, because if we’re struggling to hire, it is so important that we retain and retention is more a management issue. it is a leadership issue. it is a cultural issue. hr can’t mandate things and create policies and practices that are going to keep people there.
liz farr 06:56
no, absolutely not. now talking about belonging, what are some things you have seen firms do that create a culture that is more conducive to belonging?
jina etienne 07:17
i think one of the most important things is acknowledging that this is something we need to be thinking about. i think that employees, when they see the organization says they want to do something, and there’s evidence of that. it’s okay, if they’re stumbling and falling. it’s okay if they haven’t picked the right thing yet. you know, if, if you have a friend and the friend says they’re going to do something, and then they do it in a way that maybe they fall down, they make a goof, um, they don’t quite get it right the first time, they did something and it turns out your expectations were not aligned. you don’t just say that’s it, it’s the end of the friendship, i’m out. you forgive the friend, and you work with a friend. and that’s what people will do with their organizations. the organization says they want to be committed to diversity and inclusion. but we don’t know what that means. that’s better than not saying anything at all. and when organizations say they are interested in this work, that this work is meaningful, and that we are still figuring it out. and then they stumble, they fall, they knock it out of the park, they get this one thing, right. but then they completely miss something else. and they’re transparent about it. that’s what people want. and when organizations say they’re committed, and then nothing happens, it has the opposite effect. it makes it worse. and not just for the minorities in the organization. everybody wants to see this. so people need to think that diversity and inclusion isn’t just about attracting minority talent. it’s about attracting all talent. 60 i want to say the statistics are something like 67% of job seekers say that diversity and inclusion. demonstration of that commitment is important in accepting a job, regardless of race, and gender. so this isn’t just about, we need to get the minorities in the door. we need to keep the minorities this is about all talent wants to see that demonstration, or at least an effort, an honest effort of at the work.
liz farr 09:37
yes, because, you know, the research shows that when you have more voices more than just the old white guys talking. you have a stronger and more resilient organization for the long haul.
jina etienne 09:53
it’s interesting, there is so much data out there that talks about the boosts and profitability in engagement, the reduction in turnover, the higher levels of what is that going to say, lower levels of absenteeism? all of that, in a more diverse team, all the numbers are better. and so the data doesn’t lie. what we need to think about is how are we doing those things here? do we have diverse teams to begin with? and by the way, can i just say, when it comes to diversity, a lot of times when you hear diversity and inclusion, the first thing that pops up in someone’s mind is race. and then the next thing that pops up in someone’s mind is gender. and then the next thing today that pops up is lgbtq plus community. so gay, trans, bisexual, lesbian, queer, questioning, intersex, all of these identities and you know, words pop up into people’s heads. but diversity is so much more complex than that. and then there’s intersectionality, where somebody can be male, gender non conforming millennial with a disability, who happens to be latino, and an immigrant. now, what do i do for that person? well, you’re not trying to solve the problem for that person or the challenges. person, you’re trying to create a space where none of that matters. and that person can contribute without barriers or holding back or hiding. that’s what we’re trying to do here.
liz farr 11:44
yeah, yeah. you’ve, you’ve spoken in, in other settings about bringing your whole self to work. and i think that that is so important.
jina etienne 11:56
it’s also very hard.
liz farr 11:59
and a little scary, too, especially for accountants. because we haven’t always been that open.
jina etienne 12:07
no. and it makes sense in this industry. and in this profession, i talk about this a lot, that if you look at the history of the profession, we didn’t start out as advisors, we started out as auditors. and the nature of this profession is to be invisible to some degree. you know, ideally, you go in, you audit your client, there aren’t any issues. it’s an unqualified opinion, and you come slip right back out. and nobody got hurt in the process. and, you know, there’s anxiety in the over the course of an audit engagement if you stumble on a problem, right? if there is an issue that does need to be reported. if there’s some new thing we need to put in the footnotes that we’re afraid are going to cause draw attention. that’s, you know, that’s anxiety in our profession, right. so the entire profession has a mindset of invisibility has a mindset of being as unobtrusive, we don’t necessarily want to be invisible, we want to be valued for delivering that unqualified opinion. without bringing flair and opinions of personal natures, and nobody asked us how to drive the boat, they just want to know is the boat functioning the way it should be? so i think that, that preconceived personality and our preconceived, but this personality of the profession has somehow seeped into the personalities of the people working in the profession. does that make sense?
liz farr 13:56
absolutely. and that’s that’s very much explains the culture that i encountered in public accounting, that i was not really encouraged to be my whole self, even though my whole self is pretty benign.
jina etienne 14:25
well, but even that language it’s an interesting choice of words. on the other hand, you get to choose the word, you get to choose the language, you get to choose the attributes and the descriptors and it’s not for me to judge. now i have my own reaction to that word. but that’s my personal problem. and i think, and i see that almost as you saying, you know, maybe you’re just a little more quiet now. i’m maybe not reserved, but you’re not me. i walk around like a bull in a china shop, you know? and, yeah, perhaps that’s not the best way to be. but that is me being. and so i think this thing though about bring your whole self to work the idea of authenticity. it’s a bit of a myth. it’s a bit of a unattainable expectation, because what does that mean? how do you know when i’m bringing my whole self to work? how do you do you perceive that i am or i’m not being authentic? and how, what’s your baseline? what are your metrics? what are you expectations, some of that are all of our biases starting to show. and so there’s a, there’s a danger in that. and there’s also the, i don’t want to bring my whole self to work. so what i’m bringing to work is what i feel comfortable bringing to work. and it’s not about fear in the workplace. it’s just my personality. it’s just, i don’t think it’s any of your business, what movies i like, you know, i mean, that’s extreme, but so i do think that there’s, there’s some more discussion to be had around the idea of bring your whole self to work. and the idea of authenticity. there is a ted talk that i would encourage anyone to watch. it’s called the danger of a single story. and in this story, in this ted talk, the speaker, she’s nigerian, she grew up in nigeria. alright, i’m going to start that again and kick my dog out.
liz farr 16:55
all right.
jina etienne 16:59
because now he’s going to start coming and knocking at my door and bugging me because it’s almost too time. all right, so starting again. so there’s a ted talk that i would recommend for a lot of people to watch. it’s called the danger of a single story. and the speaker is from nigeria, she grew up, she’s a writer, she grew up came to the states, studied, and shares a lot of stories and experiences about what that means. but the thing that popped into my head just now is, as she started to become a better writer, she remembers writing a book. and it was about i don’t know, some story about either a person or a family in nigeria. and her editor, i think it was said, this isn’t, you know, i have some trouble with this book, because it’s not authentically african. then she thought, well, what does authentically african mean? it was a story that very much reflected her community. and the idea that what did he think now? i’m putting words into this? did they need to be like on a sahara desert with lions? i mean, what do you mean by authentically african? how i present myself, as long as i’m not pretending. i’m being authentic. and so, you know, once you start talking about all of these nuances, this is where dni gets sticky. yeah, because at its surface, the, you know, those definitions i gave you at the beginning, they’re easy. once you start looking at the little components of how we navigate the space as humans, that’s when it gets that’s when it gets a little more complicated and requires a lot more conversation.
liz farr 18:58
yes, yeah. and just willingness to be open to another way of looking at the world. i think that’s a big part.
jina etienne 19:11
i would say i, i would almost describe it as starting to see the world a little differently. and it’s what you said, you know, the world is changing. things aren’t the way they were. when i grew up, my sons are living in a very different world than the world i grew up in. and yet we’re still navigating the same. i mean, we’re both on the we’re all on the planet together. but the filters that i have, about what all of this means are going to be very different than the filters my son, sons have. my nephew who was in high school is going to have a very different experience of the world than my sons. and where my parents still alive. i know oh, they had very different perspectives. none of them are wrong, and they’re all different. but i think appreciating that there are those differences and maybe for me taking a fresh look at the world through my son’s eyes. yeah. and that’s when i mean, when, you know, seeing the world a little bit different, you said, i think seeing the world differently. i don’t remember which of us said which version of that but you know, it’s kind of like, you know, oh, or better yet taking off one pair of glasses and putting on another. so i think there’s an opportunity for that.
liz farr 20:43
absolutely. now, accounting talent has been scarce for years. i went back in the journal of accountancy, online database of articles, and i found articles as early as 1998, which is as far back as their archive goes, talking about the talent shortage. so this is not something new. what are some ideas that you have on how to make it better?
jina etienne 21:18
well, the first one is awareness. i think one of the challenges that we have is we’re going back to the auditors are invisible idea. i don’t think that a lot of people understand what accounting is, you know, it’s not the green shades. what was that movie? was it ben affleck, uh, called the accountant? was that who started it gave a whole different perspective about accountants. now, perhaps that wasn’t the best one. but, oh, and i ride a peloton, or i don’t know what that is. and i do a lot of the endurance type riding and the main instructor who’s actually i feel like more of a trainer is matt wilbers. matt used to be a cpa. and he talks about it a lot and talk about a completely different. well, if you’re a cpa, it’s not what i expected. you know, i think that’s kind of what we need to be doing is breaking the stereotype of what a cpa is expanding awareness on all of the different types of opportunities that people can have. can we not just complain about busy season? there’s a lot of struggle in busy season is hard. but okay, look, accountants, a lot of a lot of industries are hard. right? try being an emergency room, doctor, try being a long haul trucker? or what about those people that go all the way up on those very high towers? i don’t even know how they do that window washers in high towers in chicago. i mean, i’d rather be an accountant in busy season. so i think moving the story of the profession beyond those stereotypes, and showing that, you know, we are really diverse. even if we were all white, and male, we’re really diverse. now, don’t get me wrong. there are underrepresented minorities and women who really do need disproportionate attention in this preferred profession because they aren’t represented, but that we are a really diverse profession. with tattoos, we ride motorcycles, some of us are gay or lesbian. a lot of us might have disabilities, including things like mental health challenges. i might have seven kids, and i still want to work full time. oh, yeah. and we’re all accountants. accounting is what we do. it is not who we are. instead of accountants being who we are. and i think if we can change that narrative, we can start getting people interested. i mean, you know, let’s make it sexy. i don’t know that we’ll ever get there. but, i mean, this is amazing. i’ve had an amazing career. i love this profession. i know countless other accountants and cpas, who would say the same thing. we meet the most amazing clients have some wonderful experiences. and it’s almost like the best kept secret as far as professions go. can you imagine how diverse the talent is that we could attract? if the talent knew there was so much more to this profession than the faces you see on the front of the brochures of cpa firms. facing what we could do stories go a long way.
liz farr 24:56
i think you’re onto something there because so i know that since i left public accounting and started writing, i have met just an amazing variety of people in accounting, you know, from corporate controllers to former cpas, who work in sales people in tech companies. it’s just amazing consultants, people like you who have broken out of doing the day to day number crunching and are helping organizations and leaders become more, it’s just amazing. and i don’t think i could have, i couldn’t have done that. if i had done just about any other one of my many degrees. one of my other past lives, there’s nothing that really compares to the breadth and depth that we can have. yeah.
jina etienne 25:59
is there another industry? i’m going to try not to roll my eyes. okay, i’ll roll my eyes and just besides the lawyers, okay, is there another industry that is that a business can’t do without? no, businesses might not be very good at sales and marketing, and they might scrap half of the sales and marketing department. unfortunately, in tough times, you know, when things are tough. every business needs an accountant. yes, and bigger businesses need auditors. and more complicated businesses need tax help. and the wealthy need support with financial planning. and none of those people or those organizations are going to go it alone. because once you understand how complex this stuff is, oh, hell, no, i’m getting me an accountant. i need to hire a cpa. so we are everywhere. you know, i realized after the fact that you may have to tell me, i couldn’t have been an accountant in the nba. i could have been an accountant in the space program. i could be an investigator with the fbi with a badge and a gun and be an accountant. absolutely. absolutely. can you imagine? interesting. part of that lack of awareness, my husband told me, oh, wow, i’m gonna say i was in practice for 17 years. and 21, in total in public accounting, wasn’t until after i left, that he shared with me that he was had struggled with my career choice early on in our marriage, and felt very much alone. and i was, what do you mean, and he said that if somebody told him that marrying a tax person who lived through busy seasons, was like marrying an emergency room doctor, in terms of schedules and pressures and hours, you know, at least i would have been prepared. and so i think that that’s part of the transparency. it’s also there’s so much opportunity. and he sees that and he understands that. yeah. but i should have shared that before when we’re talking about storytelling, but i just think that the opportunities are endless. you can be in so many industries, and so many businesses and so many roles. and just as you and i were talking about just because we’re accountants and cpas doesn’t mean we have to do accounting. these skills transfer beautifully to a number of different roles. and i think we might even have at last count seven or eight cpas in congress. yeah, it could be off at this point. but yeah. unlimited opportunities. yeah.
liz farr 28:54
yeah. you know, even in new mexico, we’ve got netflix studios, they have a big presence in albuquerque, and one of the universities in town cnm as a special program that teaches movie production accounting.
jina etienne 29:14
no, no, that totally makes sense. totally makes sense. you know, as we think as i think about this, all of that will attract a more diverse workforce if the if people know that these opportunities are out there. yes.
liz farr 29:35
yeah, we just have to be a little more open.
jina etienne 29:43
i have a nose ring. and i oh, i don’t think that i don’t know if this qualifies as a ring. a piercing and i got it. maybe only seven years ago. do you know how long i wanted to get one i was afraid to get one year and and then when i did get it, i made sure that everybody that i met in the industry, i mean, i use a little bit of sarcasm as my cover to when i’m uncomfortable. sometimes i try to throw out a little sarcasm or, you know, something funny to make it more comfortable. and i would make little jokes about it. to ward off what i was afraid would be judgment. and as it turns out, nobody cares. but i know somebody who was afraid they wouldn’t get a job because they had a tattoo and the tattoo could be seen a little bit here. so they had to think very much about how they dressed. like, all of that stuff is starting to change. and thankfully, so because then somebody with a tattoo will go to college study accounting, sit for the cpa exam and get a job.
liz farr 30:59
yeah, you know, after all, you know, look at byron patrick. he’s got a cpa tattoo on his arm.
jina etienne 31:07
that’s funny, isn’t it? and yeah, i remember. i remember i think i worked at the aicpa at the time, and they made these cover things. i don’t even know what they’re called, but you put them on the back of your laptop. and so when you flip up your laptop, there’s like a picture there on the back. and i think they had cpas like talked about like a superman. i don’t know if they had super girl or wonder girl. but i remember seeing that. and i remember thinking that’s really cute. okay, that’s a bit dated now. but but just that idea that interrupts that stereotype can help us with attracting a lot more diverse talent, and then retaining the talent, we don’t have to leave firms to have different types of opportunities.
liz farr 31:52
that’s that’s exactly right. and that’s kind of a segue into my next question. you know, for decades, accounting firms have operated under pretty much the same business model and organization structure. but we’re beginning to see that change. what are some of the changes that you’re seeing in firms you work with?
jina etienne 32:17
well, in the work that i do, i would say that the biggest change that i’m seeing is cross functional, cross level interdepartmental collaboration. and when i worked in firms and public accounting, to be fair, i had my firm for 17 years. so my experience was at the big firm, i started at touche. but this idea was planted then and persisted. and as i’ve talked with other people, everybody has this knowing again, and to know about this division between professional staff and administrative staff. and that the smart ones were professional staff and the administrative staff who are the doers, but they needed to be supervised by the professional staff, which, of course, come on, i can’t use the word i want to use about it’s crack or whatever. but i think that firms are starting to realize that you know, partners to really get it on it, you’re really good at tax, you’re really good at forensic accounting, you’re really good at fill in the blank. can we let the controller be the controller? can we let the cfo be the cfo, the coo be the coo? can we let our human resource experts with their own credentials and experiences and skills, run this, i don’t need a cpa partner overlooking me over looking over my shoulder and managing me trust, right. so that trust of starting to see. and so that means when you have things like diversity and inclusion, when you have things like culture, when you have things like leadership development programs, we see technical staff, administrative staff, we see all levels from this person. so you don’t know how many times i’ve been on a meeting in the past. there’s somebody on the meeting that hasn’t even been with the firm for a year. and yet they are invited to be part of these really meaningful conversations along with the most senior partner. you have somebody in the different tax departments tax audit, business development, sales, learning and development. i see more of that than i see i only talk to the hr person. there’s some of that, but in almost every one of my clients, the conversations are really with a wider i don’t want to keep saying diverse but a more diverse group. and it’s it includes even the non cpas, which to me is a game changer, because i don’t know how many people over the years have shared this idea that the cpas are the ones that do all the thought leadership in firms. and the administrative staff really support the professional staff, instead of recognizing that they are the engine that runs the firm. so we need to take care of that engine.
liz farr 35:27
absolutely. you know, and, and i have heard other people talk about carving out roles in a firm for those people who just want their easy job doing bookkeeping, or doing something pretty simple. so that they can just come in, do their job, and then go home at the end of the day without a huge amount of authority or responsibility. they just want something they can do and contribute. and they are no less valuable because they’re happy doing the bookkeeping are the ticking and tying or the data entry, or putting the apps together or monitoring the apps, that is also vital.
jina etienne 36:25
there are so many roles to play. and if people can pick the role they want to play. fantastic, that leaves me more time to not have to worry about that. the other thing that we’re seeing, we’ve made a lot of progress in terms of gender, equity and diversity in the profession. i think we’ve been working on that longer than we’ve really been focusing on diversity from some of the other groups and some of the other dimensions. oftentimes, when organizations start their diversity efforts, they start with gender because it feels safer, less political, next, less uncomfortable. we’re used to having gender conversations in this country. as a result of all the work that’s been done, now we’re seeing i know, i’m seeing that women are being invited to partnerships with equity. you can make partner as a woman, and not have to work a full time schedule and can make partner and not have to work a full time schedule. men can take parental leave, and not be judged by their peers. i can’t tell you i think there were at least three clients last year where there were people on a project team, men who had left for parental leave, or had just come back from parental leave. and it was interesting, because i had that happen on multiple occasions. never before has that happened. so some of these dynamics, we’re starting to see change. and the fact that women increasingly because this is who in effects are able to make partner and not have to work full time, have a flexible schedule, and not have to sacrifice the level of partnership that they can participate in that they can participate in the equity of the firm. that’s remarkable. that’s that’s progress that we’ve been making. and i think that that’s something we’re going to see more of. so as as we move forward, in addition, millennials are now in their early 40s. yeah. the leadership style of millennials is a little different. i’m a gen xer. don’t tell my husband that he’s a boomer. so we all have slightly different styles, right. and there’s so many stereotypes that go with that. but there’s some generalities that are true. but the thing about the millennial leadership model is it’s a little bit more distributed leadership. it’s a leadership that looks more holistically at the people. and what we’re going to see then is they’re going to start driving some changes around cultural dynamics and leadership, and firm operating models. i hope to see some of that starting to change now. so maybe in 10 years time, we will see a new model for a cpa firm that does more of the accounting is what we do, but the way we show up is we mirror other businesses. that’s what we are, we are a business that happens to do accounting. i. it’s funny when i was preparing for this and i was writing down some notes. i’m like, why don’t we still call ourselves a firm?
liz farr 39:48
yeah, it really is an accounting, business business. yeah.
jina etienne 39:54
we say we’re advisors and consultants to our clients, but then we show up as accountants the accounting firm, it’s like we need to be, we need to buy into the story that we’re selling to our clients, too. so maybe maybe we’ll start to see some of that change.
liz farr 40:11
i think we’re beginning to some of the younger people that i follow on twitter have a very different way of operating their firms and a very different way of approaching their business. yeah. yeah. and and another thing i’ve noticed is that they are less likely to be micro managers,
jina etienne 40:36
as leaders, yeah, that that is one of the differences of style, because millennial leaders in general want to be more collaborative. now, as that happens, we’re going to start to see some of the the hierarchical structure of a firm flattened a bit. but to some degree, there’s always going to be different levels of skill and experience. and it is important in this industry, and in this work, that somebody doesn’t just walk out a college and start doing the same work that a partner does, you have to learn through experience. i have to make some mistakes in order to get it right. and so i think there will always be some of those levels, how you navigate through those levels is what’s going to start to change. that’s right.
liz farr 41:31
now, what about growth, that’s kind of a big sexy word that a lot of firms throw out. but the firm’s really even need to grow.
jina etienne 41:43
you know, it’s baked into american society that we have to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger, we’re going to be successful. i was reading. it was an advice piece in the washington post, actually, recently. and the person asked that, is it okay, that they don’t want to aspire to move up? they really enjoy where they are, they really feel like they found their superpower, managing people organizing teams. so do they want to become like the next level leader? no. but they felt like if i didn’t do it, somehow i’d be judged. and it’s the same thing with businesses. if your business isn’t growing, is there something wrong with your business? and i think i don’t know what’s going to happen in culture and business culture, business climate, but i personally don’t think organizations need to grow. but even if that’s the case, you have to manage that, because i think we’ve all heard the saying that if you’re standing still, you’re moving backwards. right? so when we say grow, grow, takes on a lot of things. are we talking about? headcount? are we talking about revenues? you know, are we talking about expanding in terms of new geographical locations? i don’t know that firms need to grow. but i think most everybody expects to and will want to grow in some form or another. and i think that firms are going to need to expand, if nothing else, the diversity and the mindset and the skill set inside of their firms, because the industry is changing, you know, some roles no longer require the cpa, we are bringing in other credentials into the profession to round up the services we offer. so we can still provide holistic services to our clients. so that part is in fact changing. but in terms of the question of growth, i don’t, i don’t know that i can answer that other than from a diversity lens. if we are going to grow and become a more diverse profession, whether we like it or not. it’s one of the things i say a little bit tongue in cheek to my clients that so you do nothing. you do nothing about diversity and inclusion, here’s what i know to be true. in 10 years, your workforce is going to be more diverse. why? because the population is more diverse than ever before. right? and so, if you don’t want to see that happening in your firm, mathematically, your firm will be smaller. if it’s going to maintain the proportions to men and women, majority minority straight to gay, right? if you’re if you’re going to maintain those proportions going forward, or the people in your leadership roles are going to look like the leaders today, you’re going to have fewer options. so there has to be if not revenue growth, this expansion of mindset, because the workforce is changing and the clients that we serve are going to be more diverse and when we want to mirror our clients as much as possible. so maybe not growth in revenue, but growth.
liz farr 45:08
i like that definition of growth is becoming more than you were last year. yeah. yeah. know. now, back when you and i were in accounting, you had to be really good with a 10 key. but hardly anybody does data entry anymore. so what skills do accountants need to be successful today and in the future?
jina etienne 45:41
one of my pet peeves when it comes to skills is soft skills.
liz farr 45:47
and oh, yeah.
jina etienne 45:49
can we just stop calling them soft skills? so i was writing it down, i was thinking about it. and then i wrote down like, what do we call it? and i put leadership skills, management skills, how about we just call them skills. and i think that when we start to see ourselves as businesses that offer accounting services, and not this idea of an accounting firm, the way we were talking about it earlier, we realized that there are a whole lot of skills we need to be successful. i made a list, right? if you think about soft skills, you have adaptability, communication, compromise, creative thinking, teamwork, conflict management, business development, trust, building trust, maintaining trust, repairing trust, individual trust, organizational trust. and so what’s not included in that list is conflict management, communication and facilitation together come to being able to feel comfortable navigating uncomfortable conversations, talking about sensitive topics, and facilitating these conversations. i put down self awareness, mindfulness, displaying empathy, you know, it’s okay to have emotions at work, right? well, that takes some work on our part to be comfortable with that out of character generation. it’s, there’s some natural reticence on our part as humans to be vulnerable period, let alone outside of our family circle or our friends circle. but we know that that vulnerability, there’s a certain level of that, that you need to build trust with colleagues and with clients. oh, yes. and then there’s a whole bunch of literacy that we need skills wise, we need cultural literacy, literacy. we need gender, literacy in terms of understanding all of those words i was throwing out before. and things like cisgender pronouns, why are they important, like those kinds of things. we need to have managers, leaders need to really have an understanding of the language around mental health and wellness. what eliminates the stigma is talking about it. and then there’s a whole lot of nuance and complexity behind all of these things, including disability disability is something that i think most people, it’s visual or it doesn’t exist. and there is this known stigma around disability that people with a disability are perceived to be less competent and less capable. and we know that’s not true. so i think that some of the skills that we need to be successful, it goes without saying you need accounting technical skill. it goes without saying. so why do we lean on that? that’s table stakes, you need to do that. any questions, keep up your skills, stay up with the latest guidance. you know, know what the tax laws are, understand some of the ethical rules and requirements, that goes without saying, to be successful, you need to be able to do all have all of the skills. you need the skills with clients, you need the skills with colleagues. and because shockingly, we’re human, these are the same skills you’re going to need through life. and so i think that when we talk about what are the skills that we need to be more successful as accountants today, we need to stop talking about the technical. yeah. that’d be like going to the doctor and saying, and wonder like the doctor reify right. reassuring me that they’re like, they haven’t they know medical stuff. so my doctor has the skills and where i sometimes get frustrated is the lack of bedside manner. you know? sorry for that. why? why are we doing it differently?
liz farr 50:10
good question. good question. so a lot of what you listed off as skills that we need are just the skills we need to become better humans.
jina etienne 50:31
i was reading an article, it might have even been today, though, certainly within the last week or so about the importance of managers. and you know, we talk about the, you know, the the managers being in the middle, and it’s being in a tough spot, but managers are in a really unique position today. because my sense of connection with my firm, my sense of trust, in my team, in the leadership, all comes down to my relationship with my manager. level of engagement. the level of safety is around that relationship with my manager. it’s not the partners. it’s not hr. and the firm could have a amazing dni strategy be doing incredible work. and my managers a jerk. and i am not going to believe a word the firm says about this whole dni thing, because there is no evidence of that here. and the flip is also true. i could have a wonderful manager has all of the skills and competencies really knows how to build connection, make me feel safe, encouraged me. it’s okay to make a mistake, recognizing that that’s how i learn. and yet my leadership is clueless, they aren’t they haven’t said a word about diversity and inclusion. but i feel that sense of connection and belonging with my firm, because of my manager. those skills are the make or break skills and managers are that sort of frontline, but they are that this the most important piece of this whole formula?
liz farr 52:27
yeah, yeah, i think there has been research that says that people don’t leave bad companies, they leave bad managers. yes. yeah. and i think that’s, that’s absolutely true. now, i left one of my firms, because the, the managers above me were departing. sewing to, to move on. and so that told me, you know, it’s time to move on.
jina etienne 53:04
i never thought of that. but i left touche ross. actually, it was deloitte by the time i left deloitte and touche. it’s very sad that the senior manager that i was working for he was a rising star, he was definitely inspiring. and he died suddenly. it was traumatic. and needless to say, there was no effort put into sort of grief counseling and recognizing that that is, there was grief at work, too. so that made it difficult. but then when i looked at the managers that was left, there was one manager who was the kind of person that he he knocked that out of the park and went and did his work. he was the classic. he gets to behave like a jerk, because he’s, he gets all of his work done. and i knew that if this guy was setting the tone, because he had been vying for that next, you know, top dog status. i didn’t want to be there. and so i left for those two reasons. one, because the person who really inspired me was longer that no longer there and the person that was the next sort of fill that role was not somebody i wanted to work for. and the team was great. i love my partner, actually. they were great colleagues. but i never thought of that, until just now.
liz farr 54:30
you just never know. well, we’ve talked about the things that accountants need to be doing to build better firms. but what should accountants stop doing immediate one?
jina etienne 54:53
i’ve already said this, but i would say hiding. i practice something called fearless inclusion. it’s my hashtag. it’s a fundamental belief that i have. and fearless inclusion to me is the comfort and the confidence of being myself and creating space for others to do the same. and so fearless inclusion isn’t just being brave, being bold, that’s part of that. and it isn’t inclusion in the sense that i can just create it. inclusion happens because of the way i show up and the space i make for others. and then the way i interact and engage with others with intention, thoughtfulness, those things. and i think that’s one of the things that we can start doing. and that means we can’t hide anymore. we can’t hide behind the green shades, we can’t hide behind the cpa stereotype. we’ve already talked about we just need to show our personalities and show our humanity. and so i think, if i boiled it down to that word it would be hiding in hiding is complex, but in all of its forms. that fixes a lot of things, actually.
liz farr 56:20
it does, unless unless it’s one of those people that belonged in last century. and you know, but even well, you know, but even even their opinions and their viewpoints should be valued.
jina etienne 56:51
absolutely. absolutely. no, one of us has the right to say this is how it should be. no. and part of the idea of fearless inclusion is that i am really spending time and effort so that i can bravely be me. i’m also honoring and accepting and creating space for everyone else to do the same. it’s not my job to determine what’s authentic for you. we might have differences of opinion, we might have different perspectives. but here’s the thing that we know, it is those differences that actually spark innovation. if it’s safe enough to express them. we know that diverse teams make better decisions. mindfulness, create results in more ethical decision making. that’s, that requires me to slow down and really be thoughtful about what it is that i’m doing. as well as being safe enough to argue with you and say i actually don’t agree not disrespectfully constructively disagree. so that’s part of hiding as well. and allowing somebody have a dated view and allowing somebody to have an ultra modern view is part of the beauty of the diversity because when those two come together and start, we start, like sort of hashing it out and tweaking things, we’ll probably come up with something better than either one.
liz farr 58:32
that’s right. he says the goal is, yeah, and what i fundamentally believe, is that 90% of what all of us care about is the same. yes, we, we all want a good world, for our children. we all want that we all want to be safe. it’s it’s the 10% of how we get there, that we have differences.
jina etienne 59:05
and and you know, it’s interesting that even people who don’t have kids, or people who never marry, still have that fundamental desire, and i would frame it in the context of connection. if you look at maslow’s hierarchy of needs, it starts with food and shelter. so we need shelter, we need food. the next thing we need is a sense of belongingness and connection. that’s before self actualization. in other words, before i can achieve my goals, for my, you know how i want to be as a parent, how i want to be in my career, what i want to do is to really fulfill my personal like, hobbies and things. i need to feel a sense of belonging. i need to feel have a sense of connection that is fundamental to being human. and so that’s that’s the humanity that we all have in common that when we feel alone, when we feel isolated, there’s a higher incidence of mental challenges around anxiety and depression. there are, there’s a shorter life expectancy, there are cardiovascular issues, which is fascinating. that’s pretty specific. because we don’t do well alone or pack animals. right. so i think that understanding and recognizing that as part of what you were talking about, you know, that we want. we want that because we want our pack to thrive. we want our group to thrive and packet work is our organization. you know, it’s our team. it’s our department.
liz farr 1:01:03
absolutely. now, what is it that keeps accountants from changing? what are the blocks to change? and?
jina etienne 1:01:14
well, there are a couple of things that come up, at least in my work. know how many times i’ve heard somebody who’s older, expressed frustration, and some of these ideas around change around mindset shift around the importance of connection, you know? i mean, look, just do good work. that’s all that matters here. yeah. and i will say, well, that goes without saying, thank you can’t show up and do crappy work and expect to keep my job. so it’s more than that. and so long as that mindset persists. that’s a barrier to change. it’s a barrier to making progress. i can’t tell you how many times i’ve heard, i don’t see color. your gender doesn’t matter to me. it’s nonsense. it’s it’s nonsense. it’s what it does, is it disrespects and dismisses some very important elements of my identity. yes, i am a woman. and i want you to see that. i have skin color. i appear to be a black person, and i am half of me. and i want you to see that i also want it to not matter. right, deserve something beautiful at a firm that was a client of mine, we were in the middle of a facilitation, like had an open discussion about some of the things that we had been exploring and learning. and someone spoke up, he was a gentleman, and he spoke up. and he said, in talking and mentioned his husband, and then just went right on talking. and you can see on zoom, see everybody. and sometimes what you see is these little tells and people when they hear something like that unexpected out of the out of the norm. and there can be those little teeny weeny moments of judgment. and there was none. really, there was none. and i had never seen that before. now, i couldn’t see everybody on on the zoom screen. but everybody there saw on the screen was engaged and there wasn’t even a little blip. and even if there was i thought it was beautiful. because we saw him we saw he was gay. and it didn’t matter. right. so i think that one of the things that blocks change is this. some of our language that tries to minimize people. at a time when we are when people are saying i want to be seen. these things do matter. and it’s so all of this stuff is so interconnected. because how much of this gets back to what we were talking about at the start about this invisibility concept that is sort of the underlying mindset around the profession. and it makes sense look at the history. it’s not that it’s wrong, but we need to be able to evolve beyond that. and so recognizing that this evolution is there, whether we like it or not. if we refuse to recognize it, that is a barrier to change. it was at an aicpa conference. this was back in the day when it was the practitioner symposium, i don’t know if you remember that conference, and there was a small firm town hall, and the room was so stereotypical. and they were talking about some of the modern ideas and changes, including, you know, value billing, and all the stuff that continues to be discussed today, and going paperless. and the role of technology, and there were a bunch of people just pushing back and expressing frustration and this young woman popped up and she stood, i think she might have been in her mid 20s, maybe, maybe 30, give or take a year. and she stood up and verbally said something, the equivalent of oh, for crying out loud, if this is what it is, like, i don’t want to work for any of you people, i’m just gonna go start my own firm. and i, i loved it, i’ve never forgotten it. people were going to be a barrier to change in the profession, and she wanted nothing to do with it. there was a new way to do things, and i ain’t waiting for you. i’m just gonna go over here and do it. and the barrier, that there weren’t barriers for her, but the other people in the room, there were hurdles that they needed to get past. and those hurdles were all mindset. yeah, technology, sometimes it doesn’t work. but that’s what specialists are for, you hire them, they fix it, and then you keep going.
liz farr 1:06:48
that’s right. it’s not an excuse. no,
jina etienne 1:06:53
i think that’s going to be our biggest challenge going forward in this digital age, in the age of information is just keeping up with the times, we still have a lot of laggers in the industry. and, you know, an anchor until you pull it up, it’s going to drag the boat, you know, it’s going to slow down progress, unless you cut it. and then there are risks to having no anchor. so i know nothing about boating, that’s as far as i can go with that one. but i think that those are those barriers are sort of overarching concepts. and behind that there are a lot of other smaller barriers, but they are all falling into those groups. that makes any sense.
liz farr 1:07:46
that does make sense. and, and i’ve seen so many people over on tax twitter, who just get that up with the firm’s that they’re in and the leadership and they just say, yeah, i’ve given my notice. and i’m bailing. you know, and i hate to do this right before busy season, but i can’t be here any longer.
jina etienne 1:08:12
yeah, i just did a webinar. i believe it was last week or the week before. and the conversation was about balancing energy, especially as we come into tax season. it’s not a question about whether you’re going to experience that moment where it just all becomes a little overwhelming. so don’t be surprised by it. what’s the plan now and and one of the first things i wanted to do was set up the fact that when you look at the headlines, journal of accountancy, going concern, cpa practice advisor, that’s what it’s called, right? you don’t have to look there, you can go out and look at stress that happens during peak intense times of busyness. and it’s not, it’s not just us, you know, we don’t get to have the busy season woes oh, feel bad for me. it’s just like i was saying earlier. what i found fascinating though, is i found this discussion thread on reddit. and it was this person who said i think they said they’ve only been working at the firm for like two years. it’s early february, and they are already overwhelmed. and just wanted desperately for some tips and for how to make it through because it’s only started. and i guess i was really surprised by that. but then again, i wasn’t it’s just it’s more of the same. i’m talking about more of this. yeah.
liz farr 1:09:54
i think that’s right. right. these days, the big thing is client accounting services, client advisory services, client accounting and advisory services, whatever you want to call it. i don’t judge. that’s a big thing right now, what do you think the next big thing will be?
jina etienne 1:10:20
i think the evolution of that. and i think that one of the ways to be a really good adviser to your client, is to really know your client. now, i, my practice was a tax practice. small, at my largest, i had seven employees never had a partner. but i always lived. and i don’t know where this came from. i remember at the time thinking, you’re doing this all wrong. although i think a lot of us think that it’s called impostor syndrome. but i felt like the way to be really good tax advisor was to almost develop a friendship with my clients. because that relationship provided the context for the advice. when i had to analyze some of the opposite alternative treatments in terms of tax law, where it’s open to judgment, context mattered. what was the risk tolerance, what might have been the meaning or the intention behind some of the work? clients revealing things to me that they wouldn’t have necessarily revealed? being able to create a space where my clients could come and ask me things. and i think that that’s where firms are moving toward, in order to be that really good advisor, we have to put our guard down, if i want my client to really be vulnerable with me, and that doesn’t mean, you know, telling you what i’m scared of, and they are in the accounting context, it might mean that i’m struggling with some of my staff, my employees are, i have an employee who’s doing xyz, and i don’t know how to handle it, like, i’m not going to tell my accountant that if i’m afraid my fees are going to go up, if i’m afraid it’s going to affect some decision are going to make on the accounting, or worse, i’ll be ignored. and so to be a really good advisor, we have to have deeper connections. it’s called customer intimacy. yeah, i need to, i think we’re going to move into that model. because intellectually being an adviser to the client, we’re not going to get data, analyze it and give them some thoughts. it’s, we’re moving beyond that now. and customers and clients are going to be demanding more of. and then i think naturally, and what we’re starting to see in the industry is our services are becoming more holistic. other than the independence that’s required for the audit work. everything else can fix everything else. yes. and so being able to advise on that means being able to talk about all of that, and coming to your client. i’m a business owner, i get it. i struggle with this in my firm. here’s some things that have worked for me and let me understand a little bit more about how it’s going with you. we don’t have to show up perfect. no. i remember. i know for me, i had a situation. people who have heard me talk about this, and sessions and presentations. i usually cry, but i won’t cry today. i don’t feel like coming on. but i remember my father passed away. and he passed away in early september. and i was an s corp gal. that was my specialty. and back then the extended due date for s corporations was october 15. now it’s what september, let me act like i know, i don’t know. but i had a very short window of time. and during and part of that window was time i had lost what my father was in hospice care. and before that was the struggle to try to keep them out of hospice care. and so there was a long window where my work hours had been diminished. now i had to plan a funeral. oh, and by the way, there’s morning, my productivity was really low and i’m staring at this big deadline and i will never forget. one of my clients came in and she said it’s okay if my tax return goes late. i know you’ll take care of me. i’ve never forgotten that because there was enough trust that not only could i file it late, but whatever happened in the process she trusted me, you’re going to take care of it. that’s because she knew how difficult this was. and it wasn’t because i was trying to hide it. i wasn’t trying to be brave. it wasn’t like some out of office type interaction. and i had a lot of relationships up with that clients, clients forgive a lot. when you show them that, you know, i’m a business owner, too. i’m a parent too. i have a disability too. it’s invisible, you can’t see it, whatever the case may be. so i think that advisory services as naturally moving us in that continuum in that direction, and the sooner we get there, the stronger relationships will be. and we’ll also be able to iterate and really be more innovative in the services that we offer, we’ll be able to attract that talent, and so on, it all comes full circle again.
liz farr 1:15:57
yes. yeah. yeah. and i think that that is really true. i’ve heard from so many other people that they are doing so much more for their clients. it’s not just the bookkeeping. it’s not just the tax work. but it’s thinking of things that will help the clients move forward. and you can’t do that. if you are just cranking away as fast as you can try to get one tax return out and start on the next one. you just can’t use you need the bandwidth.
jina etienne 1:16:48
you’re doing the bookkeeping, you’re doing the write up. and you notice something. and you know, it’s not a big deal. it’s not going to hurt anything. but if it were you it’s it’s a telling thing about maybe something that’s going on with the client, and telling them talking to a client about it. it’s not part of the bookkeeping services. but you know, to me, client, i see this, and i’m a little bit worried that is there something going on. i mean, i did that once, and here’s what was happening to me. i’m happy to help. and then you leave it there, it could be that invite that gives you a clue about the tax work. and so when now you’ve got something that you’re holding on to the file, the data comes in, and now you’re seeing something based on what you noticed before and then you’d like you know, client, i noticed something. when i saw the bookkeeping, it gave me this idea. but now i’m starting to notice. and then you have a conversation. yeah, i’m doing the accounting and the tax work. and i look at that, and i get this great idea. i’m gonna do this in my business. that’s fantastic. client, i learned something from you, thank you. it. it, there’s so many opportunities, we’re really in a unique position, because there are things we know about our clients that nobody else knows.
liz farr 1:18:08
absolutely.
jina etienne 1:18:10
i mean, you gotta tell your client, a lot of things that you don’t want the public to know, we are trusted, and you know how much more we can offer our clients. some of it requires us to let our guard down, and also requires us to be willing to have conversations that aren’t about the bookkeeping aren’t about the tax return. you know, it’s two and three, two and three sort of issues out or iterations out. but i can see it from here. so let me talk to you about
liz farr 1:18:45
that’s exactly right. and i think that that’s the perfect note to end our conversation on. it has been so wonderful talking to you and hearing all of your ideas, you know, now, if listeners want to connect with you, where is the best place to find you?
jina etienne 1:19:08
well, first, let me say thank you. thank you so much for having me. i really appreciate this opportunity to talk about these issues because they mean so much to me, and anyone who wants to talk about them with me. email me, you know the easiest thing to do because spelling my name is fun. now. find me on linkedin, on linkedin. you can go to my contact info, and everything you need to do to reach me is their website. there’s a contact form on my website. linkedin messaging is good. i’ve even had people reach out to me through twitter and message me through twitter, i’m miss tax cap on twitter. so part of that next twitter. i don’t know why they keep me around, but i am. so you can reach me through all of the social platforms. i would say my facebook company page is probably the …effective.
liz farr 1:20:14
well, thank you so much, jina. and i look forward to seeing you in person someday.