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innovation insights
with donny shimamoto
center for accounting transformation
adrian hong’s journey into the realm of environmental, social, and governmental (esg) reporting has been nothing short of inspiring. as the founder of hong consulting, llc, his dedication to assisting companies with esg reporting stems from a rich tapestry of experiences, all pointing to one common thread – the desire to help.
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after building a formidable reputation in auditing within public accounting and lending his skills to the financial accounting standards board for refining external taxonomy, life had other plans. hong returned to his roots in hawaii to steer the helm of his family’s venture, island plastic bags.
however, his tenure as president didn’t just offer managerial experience. it was a learning curve about sustainability, environmental compliance, and legislation–issues his clients and other businesses struggled to understand, which made compliance even more difficult. out of necessity, hong became an expert in what is now called esg reporting. this newfound knowledge and passion led hong to establish hong consulting. the mission? to guide businesses, just as he did for island plastic bags, in crafting and disseminating sustainability reports and imparting knowledge to professionals.
a prevalent misconception, as hong emphasized, is relegating esg to the realm of public relations. he countered, “esg isn’t merely about pr. in places like the u.s., where sustainability reporting isn’t mandated, it’s easy to dismiss. but, when taken earnestly, these reports provide a rich backdrop to financial statements and a deeper insight into the company’s ethos.”
he elaborated on the value of esg. “such reports illuminate the company’s stand on inclusivity, its approach toward long-term risks, and even the assets that might face regulation-induced stagnation in the future,” hong explained.
with the world pivoting toward eco-consciousness, hong underscored the monetary advantage, too. “a colossal flow of funds is directed toward green innovations, from carbon capture to electrifying transportation and grids. companies that align their brands, products or technologies with these green initiatives not only meet consumer demands but also tap into lucrative government incentives.”
4 more takeaways from adrian hong
- esg reports offer a panoramic view of a company, shedding light on facets like diversity and inclusion initiatives, business resilience strategies, and risk assessment.
- voluntary esg reporting could be a strategic move. vendors often prefer partners who emphasize sustainability.
- esg insights can drive the creation of new, sustainable products and services.
- the benefits of esg reporting are manifold:
- it can give a recruitment edge, as firms with commendable esg ratings often enjoy better employee morale and appeal.
- it enables firms to address any negative press proactively and underscore their commitment to societal welfare.
- it paves the way for securing government grants and tax breaks with specific reporting prerequisites.
- it amplifies a company’s trustworthiness in the eyes of investors, governmental bodies, and various stakeholders.
more about adrian hong
adrian hong is the owner of hong consulting, llc., a consulting firm that helps clients measure and report on their sustainability. hong consulting also educates accountants and other professionals on esg matters to help them build vital skill sets for the future. hong is also president of island plastic bags, inc., a local, family-owned manufacturing company. his previous work experience includes being an auditor at berntson porter, an xbrl project research associate at the financial accounting standards board, and an instructor at the university of hawaii – west oahu. additionally, hong is an active member of the hawaii society of certified public accountants (hscpa), where he performs outreach to high school and college students and participates in community service projects. he also currently sits on the hscpa’s board.
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
donny shimamoto 00:05
all right. welcome to innovation insights. i’m your host, donny shimamoto. and i am the inspiration architect for the center for accounting transformation. during these episodes, we’ll visit with a variety of people who can share with us ideas, information, technology, and business practices that are excelling, accelerating innovation, and transforming the accounting profession. today, i’m joined by adrian hong, the owner of hong consulting. and adrian, welcome and tell us a little bit about your background and kind of why you’re here today.
adrian hong 00:39
so my background is i started in public accounting as an auditor. and then i spent a couple of years working for the financial accounting standards board, updating the external taxonomy, and then actually got to come back home to hawaii because i was born and raised here and take over the family business island plastic bags were manufacturer of trash liners, food grade bags, things like that, in halawa valley, doing that, you know, running that company, as president, i learned about a lot about sustainability, about environmental legislation about compliance. and so i started hong consulting to help other businesses, like i helped island plastic bags, draft and published sustainability reports, educate professionals. and that’s why i want to talk with you today. and you know, talk with the people that are listening to this is, this is really interesting and important and emerging topic and accounting.
donny shimamoto 01:30
i agree with you. that’s what we have in this innovation area, because we feel like this is one of the innovations esg reporting, which environmental, social and governance reporting for people that don’t know that yet, that’s that this is one of the innovations we’re seeing, because everyone criticizes the financial statements and says, well, the financial statements are no longer relevant. well, i would change that a little bit and say, the financial statements are kind of table stakes. and what we’re seeing is the new innovation and reporting is really this whole esg concept. because if we go back, like integrated reporting was actually around since the 90s. and esg, is sort of the next flavor of really bringing integrated reporting in.
adrian hong 02:08
so i would definitely agree with that. so so people ask all the time is, you know, isn’t esg just pr, like, you know, is it just public relations? is the people we’re putting on environmental, social governance issues? are they just trying to cover their butts to the public? and i would, it can be that, you know, like people can, especially in the united states, where it’s not a requirement to report these sustainability reports, people can put all kinds of things in them. but if people are taking them seriously, they really provide context for the financial statements context for the business. it lets people know about things like, you know, the people, you know, like, inside the organization, you know, you know, how inclusive and diverse it is, how it views long term risks? how, you know, you know, like, you know, if one day like they do in europe, they put a carbon tax in the us, how is that going to affect the business in terms of the liabilities, it has the long term risks, the assets that might be stranded because of regulation. and so it gives so much context about, you know, things about, you know, potential liabilities that aren’t on the balance sheet now, but might be in the future, it gives you a lot of ideas about how, you know, like brands, like you know, we started a new brand and our plastic bags called ohana ware, and it’s a lighter compostable cutlery and food land. it’s in tomorrow, it’s an all these different stores, and we would never have gotten in with plastic colors, so much competition, like we didn’t have an established brand before, you know, like that, for the plastic coloring and stuff like that. and so you can create new brands and new business models on this sustainability stuff. and, and to and to people that really don’t think that it’s, it’s vital and important, and it will have the financial impacts. just look at the inflation reduction act and infrastructure actors, hundreds of billions of dollars of money going into new green technologies, whether it’s carbon capture, whether it’s electrification of vehicles of the grid. there’s not just you know, like words, like hundreds of billions of dollars in tax credits and grants and funding is going into these areas. and so if you can show brands or technologies or products that service these things, service, what the consumer is looking for services what you know, the government is trying to incentivize. there’s there’s a significant amount of money to be made as well.
donny shimamoto 04:40
yeah, i definitely agree to you there’s so many interesting aspects to this. now earlier you brought up the concept of required saying it’s not required now. so why should someone do it? well, you just brought up there might be some tax incentives that they can get from that. and i’ve been plastic bags is a small company. can you tell us a little bit more about the company because i just want people to get the content next have, you know, i don’t talk some bags, not this big public company that’s subject to sec requirements for reporting. so tell us a little bit more about ai and plastic bags. and why did you guys decide to do an esg? report?
adrian hong 05:12
sure, sure. so we’re taught person company. so definitely not definitely not a big company. we have one manufacturing location that will fall out pulled out of a valley. and i, you know, and so it’s not a big operation at all. but we wanted a contract with a company that was a public company. and as a requirement, they have their vendors get esg rated, because they want that information so that they can report it on their sustainability reports on their metrics, on their, you know, when they meet with stakeholders, what’s what are they doing to improve their impact on the environment, on good governance, on health and safety for workers. and so to become, you know, to be of, you know, to get that customer to get that bid, we had to become esg rated? well, you can’t get good esg ratings. if you don’t have a sustainability report, our first years ratings when we didn’t really have a sustainability report were terrible. and then each year, they’ve improved, you know, like we use that a company uses ecovadis for their esg ratings. and it’s a very popular way of scorecard in your supply chain. and we’ve gotten from unranked to bronze to silver in our in our respective industry and company size. and so each year, we’re reporting more relevant information with more context, and we’ve gotten better and better and our ratings have increased because of that. but yeah, like, we’re a small company, but to get that contract, we needed that information to be disclosed. it’s also good, like, one of the reasons why we did it was to respond to the criticism that, you know, all plastic is evil. you know, we’ve dealt with a lot of environmentalists at the state legislature at the city and county of honolulu and other counties, where they think that anything plastic or any plastic product, or any plastic company is bad. and responding to that criticism, you know, that no, you know, a significant portion of our power comes from pv panels on our roof. so, you know, a lot of our, you know, a good chunk of our electricity is generated from non fossil fuel sources, you know, it doesn’t emit last year 66% of the plastic bags we sold were made from recycled materials. you know, this is our water usage. this is our health and safety metrics, showing that we’re a responsible company that we carry and conserve resources that we care about the community that we work in. and so you know, things like that responding to criticism, trying to get new business, places like, you know, tesla, its improves their brand, like, you know, this is what we’re doing to electrify fleets. this is, you know, how we’re getting this much emissions off and stuff like that. so like, even for small companies, if you have a product or a technology or service, that’s like, you know, especially like, you know, going for these inflation reduction and grants or infrastructure grants and stuff like that, having this reporting information, makes you look credible to the government makes you look credible to the stakeholders and credible to the investors. and and, you know, this information will definitely be asked for, i’m sure by the government, like, how do you how do you plan to use this grant?
donny shimamoto 08:28
completely agree with you, that’s where i think a lot of people are looking at it as it’s the public company. but really, what they should also be looking at is what i often think of as the trickle down effect. so you’ve already mentioned the suppliers, we know that from the federal that’s going to end up going to government to state and local government or municipal governments. and so if anybody is a contractor for them, and they’re part of that supply chain, now they’re going to start getting pulled, probably pulled into a lot of these reporting requirements as well. so this is not just a public company thing. now.
adrian hong 09:01
yeah. to add to that, i still in the state of hawaii, i saw one bid that went out that has sustainability linked targets in it. that’s just one they haven’t done it for all the state beds, but i mean, eventually, like you said, it’s going to trickle down. and, you know, in time, you know, i what i learned was like, first of all, it was a compliance thing. i did it because the customer asked, but as i kept doing it, it became a great risk assessment process. you know, what’s, what’s material to us long term? how do we make sure that our plastic bags has been for here for 31 years? how do we make sure that it’s here for another 30? what are the regulations, cybersecurity issues, water usage, issues that are going to affect us and things popped up that you would never have imagined like, water usage, like we don’t use a ton of water, but as a manufacturer, we do use more than a condo or house or things like that, but it became a material esg issue for us when the a navy fuel spill happened, right? all of a sudden 20% of the water on a wahoo might potentially be contaminated. and so you know, water water supply cut off all those wells around the navy fuel spill. and you know, they were talking about a 10% mandatory reduction. so how do you adapt to a world where you don’t have enough water to manufacture everything you need? and what plans do you need to put in place. and luckily, people were able to reduce like the whole island of oahu was able to reduce their water usage by 5%. water supply was able to bring on capacity that they that was a lot of offline before on. and so we were able to kind of meet where there was enough demand and supply to meet. but that’s this is still an ongoing, maybe feel that if you feel spill is an ongoing crisis, right, we still have to keep an eye on it. stuff to keep an eye of water usage increases, there may be mandatory cuts in the future, to manufacturers, to food manufacturers to all types of businesses. so, you know, i’m sure a lot of businesses aren’t thinking about that right now. but it’s something we’re thinking about, and we have plans for how do we, you know, you know, we probably outsource production if we were forced to reduce production here to our manufacturing partners in different parts of the world to compensate for the things that we couldn’t manufacture here because of the loss of water scarcity.
donny shimamoto 11:21
well, i love that you’re bringing all this in, because what you’re what you’re really talking about there is actually business continuity, so risk and business continuity. and because i know one of the other questions everyone starts to go to is like, why are we doing this as accountants? shouldn’t all this environmental stuff be done by the scientist? and shouldn’t this other manufacturing stuff be done by the engineers? so i think you just help them really make the case that says, this is why us as accountants really need to be involved with this, because in the bottom line, it’s about risk management, and then business continuity and response if to some of these risks that may then arise, which requires our broader view of the business, not just the financial aspects, but looking at operations, and everything else that could be going on, what’s the alternatives? how can i continue to operate?
adrian hong 12:05
so you’re absolutely right, 100% i couldn’t agree more in terms of this, you know, accountants measure things. that’s what we do. we measure report, we set goals and stuff like that. so you, the scientists can give you like, you know, what the, you know, what the emissions inventory is? when do we get to, you know, 1.5 degrees celsius for climate change, and stuff like that, you kind of the engineers let you know, how much more efficiency you can get an led lighting, but there’s no context to that information, right? i mean, they can help you reach your goals, they can help you, but there’s no one measuring, tracking and providing context for how that would affect the financials, how that’ll affect this community. you know, like, you’re right, we’re the central player, and all of that, right. and so it’s super critical that both within organizations, you know, like cpas, like me inside of organizations and companies, like on plastic bags, but cpas, helping people with client accounting services, or audits or tax work, the tax people are going to have to work on these. with the grants, and the tax credits are going to mean for these organizations, the auditors are going to, in the future payment have to audit some of this information. as it becomes more required, you know, especially if this becomes part of sec reporting, you know, there’s a discussion right now about sec, esg disclosures, basically, more environmental disclosures than anything inside of 10 ks. and so if that becomes they’ll definitely be audits of that kind of information. and so, accounts have a critical role to play public accountants, accounts and organizations that comes in not for profits. this is this is critical for accountants.
donny shimamoto 13:45
and another word that you brought up earlier was materiality. and who else better to assess materiality than us? tell us? because tell us how you looked at or how you figured out what aspects of esg? because there’s, if people go and look it up, they’ll see like, it’s not just three things, it’s actually like 20 3040 thing depending on which framework you look at, it’s a lot of things, how do you actually figure out what’s material or what’s what’s important to report on the universe of esg?
adrian hong 14:13
i call it an umbrella because it’s just like a just a huge umbrella of topics. and you could have hundreds of topics subtopics inside of each e s, ng. and so it is overwhelming when you first think about it. i would start by looking at what’s your competitors are reporting because it can give you a, you know, help narrow down that universe, what your competitors are reporting, what criticism or interests or concerns you have from stakeholders, whether they’re investors, whether they’re environmentalists or labor activists or like, you know, or you know, the stakeholders in your organization. what are they what do they care about? what are they concerned about? what are your competitors reporting and and, and then what are risk factors for you, you know, like, what are your long term risk factors, and that can really help you narrow down es ng. and, you know, i found a lot of help looking at competitor, you know, not like direct competitors, because we have, you know, there’s not too many public companies that we’re going up against. but there are public plastic companies and taking a look at them and seeing what they’re reporting. seeing what issues in hawaii are prevalent in terms of like, you know, what specific environmental, or social or governance issues are rife here and stuff like that. and so looking at what other people are doing, look at you looking at your risk factors. common ones that probably for everyone, cybersecurity, like huge issues, small businesses, medium sized businesses, large businesses, not for profits, government, it’s never been more critical to have as narrow attack plane as possible. and as much defenses as possible. ransomware data breaches there daily, in the news, i was talking with a bunch of bank of hawaii loan officers about esg, i was giving a presentation to them. and i was asking them, how many of you like of these loan officers, i said, raise your hand, if you’ve never had one of your customers have a breach and none of them raise their hand. and so this is this is the scale of the problem, right? you know, so cybersecurity is a huge, you know, governance issue and a social issue. because if those data breaches happen, all that privacy information, all that you know, personally identifiable information becomes public. so you have a social issue, you have a governance issue, you have huge issues. so it’s a big esg issue, greenhouse gas emissions, climate change is a huge issue for everybody. what does it look like when your business transitions to a lower carbon world, right? you know, our acid is going to be stranded, as we get to 1.5 degrees celsius or two degrees celsius? what are the risks to your infrastructure, not just your building, but the ports you use? the you know, the people in between the warehouses, the truckers, all of that stuff? what kind of regulation will come into effect? will it be? will it be carrots, like we’re doing in the us where there’s a lot of tax credits and incentives to move to a low carbon world? or is it going to be more like sticks, like in the european union, like carbon taxes or other things like that, and so, you know, this, these, these things are going to affect you. there’s gonna, like i said, it’s a huge umbrella. so there may be tons of topics that will never, you know, like, animal welfare is not something that, you know, senator for our county transformation and enterprise technologies is ever going to have to worry about, but if you’re a farmer, and that’s a huge esg issue for you, you know, like new legislation is coming out in different states about that, you know, you know, methane production from, you know, dairy farms and stuff like that. and so all of these issues are met material to somebody, but they may not do material to you. and so looking at different companies and kind of figuring out what your risk factors are, really helps.
donny shimamoto 18:11
so if i draw the analogy back to what we do in the financial statements, like there’s tons of different types of accounts and standards that might or may or may not apply, it depends. so it comes back down to professional judgment comes back down to materiality, which you’ve also mentioned and then we can also do that draw that analogy over to the risk management side, which is then understanding where are the risks? and how does the risks actually play itself out because it’s more than just financial risks, and enterprise risk management actually falls under our ramas as accountants and especially as cpas and a lot of these touch on different types of enterprise risks. and i think a lot of people think here enterprise anything well, that’s only for big companies, but i think what we’re seeing is a really good adaptation of that or i think of it as a right sizing of enterprise risks as it comes down because before too, we used to think of cybersecurity that was a big company thing now even a sole proprietor needs to really protect customer information employee information because the risk is so prevalent every where.
adrian hong 19:13
yeah, i mean, for sure, like you know, like when people are saying like it’s not for small businesses are not for small for profits. some of it may not be right you know, you’re looking at like i look at a sustainability report for matson or for any of these public companies some of these sustainably reports can run over 100 pages. there is no there is no reason a small like even us like a tall person company should ever have to disclose 100 page sustainability report right? we are i think ours is like our seven or eight pages and stuff like that. so you know right scale it for you you know like it’s cybersecurity for target is not going to be applicable to a sole proprietor but you need some type of cybersecurity. so definitely right size it for you take a look at what people are reporting. take a look at what’s important to you. and then marshal the resources and the disclosures as necessary for that, you know, like, you know, island plastic bags looked at, you know, there’s a ton of different reporting frameworks. unfortunately, there’s no one fasb framework for sustainability. so there’s a lot of different reporting frameworks. and we looked at a bunch of different a little different ones of them. and i kind of mixed and matched for our, our sustainability report, because, you know, i was trying to make something a report that was synced, efficient, useful, and that fit a 12 person company. and so i didn’t strictly follow any one of those frameworks, but i use the different frameworks to figure out what was important to report on and disclose and get a better esg rating and comply with everything, but i still same time also assess risks, and get utility out of this process. and so i resized it for my foot.
donny shimamoto 21:01
like that, that that is definitely approach i take on a lot of the technical technology and the transformation work that we do in cybersecurity, as well as really kind of right size that down. and i think i think that’s so key, because a lot of people go ask yourself big stuff. but if you actually take the time, and it’s not like it takes a ton of time to just kind of think what is actually relevant and what makes sense. what what other since since you’ve done this, i believe at least two years now what what is what are some of your lessons learned for other small business owners or other accountants that are working with small businesses? what what would you what are some of the things where, you know, i wish i knew this when i started.
adrian hong 21:40
so i, what did they know, you know, you’ll probably start with just having to comply, because a customer requested it or things like that. but what you put in is what you get out. so if you if you put some effort into it, don’t make it a pr initiative, actually make it a risk assessment, you can get a lot of value out of that risk assessment, you can figure out where you need to be putting your money, where you need to be moving your organization to over the long term. so that’s very helpful. second quarter, what surprised me too, is something you talked about, like trying to marry esg to financials, sometimes there isn’t a great correlation, like between something that you do that really affects the environment. and the financials, for example, a lot of companies have air conditioning systems or chillers, or we use refrigeration of some kind you like, where they’re at supermarkets or whatever. right? so you’re using some kind of refrigerant to refrigerate right? like a, you know, propane tank size of refrigerants, costs a few $100. what if it’s omitted, like if they call it a fugitive emissions, because they escaped, right, it’s not like you’re burning something and it comes out. so fugitive emissions, they’re just escaping emissions. so let’s say you have refrigerants that escape like a propane tank full of it, those emissions because they have such a bigger global warming potential, they heat the world so much more than carbon dioxide, um, that you could run a flatbed truck for a whole year. and that would be about the same emissions as a small tank of refrigerant. and so there are some things that you can do, you know, like, you know, making sure that your air conditioning systems maintained, repaired, making sure that you make sure that you reduce leaks inside of your chillers and stuff like that, that can have huge that don’t show up on your financials in terms of like huge negative liabilities, we’re gonna have huge environmental impacts. so sometimes you think like, oh, this thing like when we were going through that process of tracking refrigerant emissions for us, like there’s no way that these emissions will be a material part of our process, but you have to do a back of the pencil thing to kind of figure out if that’s actually true, right? what are your assumptions true, and we found out that no, this is material. and you know, if we spent a little bit of money, we can have a huge impact on the way on our greenhouse gas inventory emissions and stuff like that. and so there are ways that you can really help the environment or help your employees or provide better governance that don’t cost a lot of money. you can when you’re going through this process, you can kind of see, okay, this would cost me a lot of money to, you know, to get to that next step. but here, i can make a really big impact for my employees for the health and safety, better lighting or, or, you know, marking railway handrails and stuff like that, or, you know, you can figure out what’s the most bang for your buck by doing this process.
donny shimamoto 24:42
so i would i would draw an analogy again, because as you’re, as you’re saying that i’m thinking, yeah, and we do the same thing in internal controls, and we look at, i want to design the better control or the better mitigation strategy where i’m going to get the most bang for my buck and it needs to make sense from a risk reduction versus the cost of actual implementation. if i take that type of mindset, i can apply the same thing here, and really figure out what makes sense, because it’s not about reaching the textbook definition of i’ve mitigated all my risks. it’s figuring out what really makes sense. and especially in our world, the small business world, it’s even more important, because we don’t have those deep pockets that the big companies have
adrian hong 25:20
that, yeah, for sure, you need to be able to, like you can, you need to be able to make money, right? like, you know, esg is not a charity, like, this is not, you know, you’re not supposed to, like, you know, live like a monk, your employees aren’t supposed to live like a monk, you want to be profitable, you want to be successful, the whole point is esg is supposed to help you be successful for the long term, you know, and so you shouldn’t be spending all your resources on something that will give long term benefit to you and the environment and your employees and your shareholders and like, you’re supposed to benefit all stakeholders. so and not over in benefits equal to over the long term, you know, not just today or not just tomorrow, you know, this is about sustainability, right? you want to have an impact over the long term and stuff like that. so little things today, little things today. and imagine just reducing your emissions 2% a year, over the long haul, how much you know, you just compound that over time and stuff like that. so small changes over the long haul can have big impacts.
donny shimamoto 26:28
like i really like that, that that’s a great kind of point to close on, per se, because i think that’s the other criticism we hear a lot on the public company is that it’s all a lot of short term, it’s to make that quarterly and all these things. but there’s an opportunity where if we take both the bigger picture view, as well as the longer term view, or maybe at least the mid term view of what’s going on, and what changes are we trying to affect and not just looking at, okay, well, how is this changing our quarter? how is this changing our year? that’s a great, that’s a great message to kind of end with. and that’s why it takes really this balanced view and the judgment of accountants to really get involved with this and help make things happen. so you’re actually because of all these lessons learned, i love to that you have the background with fasb. so you know what the big picture looks like, you know what the big companies look like? you’re, you’re going to be helping other business owners with this. so if people are interested in learning more, what what should they do? how do they get in contact with you?
adrian hong 27:32
awesome. so yeah. so with the center of accounting for transformation, we are doing a webinar on on plastic bags is a case study. so when i started this, i basically had just learned by doing like, i just had to figure it out. there weren’t a lot of resources for small and midsize entities. and so we really want to help out people that want to report their first sustainability report. so we’re going to do a case study that kind of walks through how island plastic bags got from not getting, you know, not having a report getting esg rated, getting a poor esg rating, to becoming, you know, getting a silver medal from ecovadis on its esg rating on the latest one for 2022. and so we want to we want to show you a step by step, so you can kind of get moving that direction as well. and so there will be a webinar coming out. i believe that details will be attached to this podcast. and if you guys have more topics you guys want us to discuss, please let donnie know please let me know. my email address is adrian hong ad r i a n h o ng at hong consulting llc.com on but please let me know please let donnie know, if you want additional esg webinars or podcasts or stuff like that, we’d be happy to come back and talk about specific topics. it’s such a huge 10s of different topics that really help if you guys, let us know what you want to hear about.
donny shimamoto 29:02
i love that. thank you for making that call for me. i normally have to ask for that too. and so that, that’s really great. i really thank you, adrian for coming and sharing this with me. i think the you know, the reason i wanted to talk about this was you as i with you was that i feel like you really made it real because it’s been all this stuff and everyone’s talking about as public companies but to have this small company perspective, and the fact that it’s doable, and it’s achievable, and it doesn’t have to cost you a lot. i think that’s another great point that you made there. i think that’s really important for everyone to hear. so you out there, i encourage you to come and visit us at the center for accounting transformation website at www dot improve the world dotnet you can see our tie into esg and sustainability there. so improve the world.net we try to provide business and accounting professionals with frameworks for utilizing innovations that are ready for adoption, the training and resources necessary to apply the innovations and the opportunity to really engage the talent and community people like adrian who are involved with us to really further your pursuit of innovative accounting practices that drive responsible and mindful business performance. so again, that’s www improve the world.net thanks again, adrian for joining us. and i hope all the rest of you would join us for the next innovation insights. all right, we’re good. awesome.