the 150-hour rule is facing harsh criticism in the accounting staffing crisis.
with steven sacks
the new fundamentals: thriving in disruption
there is a movement afoot by the state cpa societies to reconsider whether the fifth year of an accounting program that offers the student a master’s in accounting is worth the cost, not to mention the increased complexity of business requiring as much exposure and experience as necessary to groom the younger professionals.
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however, there is a shortage of 300,000 cpa candidates entering the profession’s pipeline. that’s why several states are seeking to eliminate, modify or enhance the educational/experiential model.
steve sacks, cpa, cgma, abc, discussed the dilemma of education versus experience with accounting expert david bergstein, cpa, the chief innovation officer for bergstein cpa and teaching adjunct for valencia college.
5 key takeaways:
- the cpa profession has become a revolving door because the changes in the business environment have surpassed what can reasonably be tested on the cpa exam.
- universities have to carefully consider the courses to offer that are truly worthwhile and not more accounting, financial statement analysis and taxes.
- the challenge remains for the profession to counter the prevailing view that the starting and the early years of pay are not competitive and the hours are long.
- firms will start to see the benefit of working with universities to establish or strengthen paid internship programs that will serve as the fifth year. credits are granted, there is no tuition to pay and interns get compensated for work.
- if firms go to a hybrid model, students should understand that culture; if the firm they intern at requires five days of in-office appearances, they need to evaluate that environment to determine if the cpa profession is for them.
transcript
(transcripts are made available as soon as possible. they are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.)
steven sacks 00:00
good afternoon. i’m steve sacks, cpa here with dave bergstein, cpa in another installment of the dave and steve accounting show. so, today david, one of the things you and i have been talking about we’ve read a lot is — this concept of eliminating or retiring as it were the five-year program in accounting, where you get the masters in the extra year. so i always had — i grew up on the ethos of there’s no better teacher than experience. so i worked my way through college. and i worked in accounting, mostly in the private sector, little touch in public accounting. so anybody can do the accounting work, but that’s the work. what about the accounting environment versus the extra year? so it’s the extra year in the classroom, versus having one-year have actual work experience and understanding the environment. so tell me, is this a bad thing? a good thing? or feeling neutral about the concept of ridding the profession of the five-year program?
david bergstein 01:19
well, great question, steve. and i’ll be neutral. but the real argument is not five years, four years, experience or education. the real argument is, people have to look when they go into high school and college, that being an accountant, number one is a fun profession. right now, every time i get a student, or every time you hear it, it’s math, it’s terrible. it’s only math. what do you think about that?
steven sacks 01:49
well, i think it has to do with a much broader question of how has the profession been positioned over the last quarter of a century. there’s a confluence of factors. so where’s the issue?
david bergstein 02:05
well, the issue, as i see it, is, people don’t perceive it as an exciting career to go in with, number one. and number two, if you go and look at reddit, or hear people talk. all people talk about who are accountants about the negativity; about the long hours; and they don’t make good salary to start with. but actually, if you read deep into reddit, the ones who get the cpa certificate, a cpa certificate opens up the world to them. they don’t have to stay in public accounting. they can go into high finance, they can go into the tech world. becoming an accountant opens up a lot of doors for you. because it’s not about the accounting, per se. you can do anything in business as an accountant because you have to use your accounting skills, in business to make decisions. so i think it’s more public relations,. it’s more marketing about what a cpa certificate does for you, because it opens up doors. it is the trust factor. and people want — and by the way, as we go through economic hard times, there’s always a job for accountants. and when someone’s looking at resumes, if they see cpa on it, it puts you to the top of the pile where they don’t see cpa on it — in the first sort.
steven sacks 03:28
so, let me let me stop you right there. because there’s a lot to unpack from that last statement. and that is, number one, you haven’t addressed the question about is that extra one-year in school, the value you get from that, versus working for one year, interning as it were in pwc, or whatever the future holds, with all the number of firms, i can see where you would think that extra 22 to 30 credit hours of actually, essentially the same stuff. you know, this, the schools will get smarter, they’ll throw in data analytics earlier on. so you don’t have to get to five years and over time, the whole curriculum will change which may obviate the need for the fifth year. i think the one year of experience because it’s not the doing. it’s the understanding of the environment. that takes a big deal. now think about this, david. when we talk about an environment, in work in-person work, and now it’s debate of do we do hybrid? you know, remote, three days in the office, etc, etc. so, so that big element of the work and the environment, which is 50% of the of the equation, when you think about it. you don’t like the environment. why do you think people have left? the profession has been a revolving door. there’s a lot of things it needs to catch up to. it has to catch up to culture. it has to catch up with the cpa exam. it has to catch up with it’s public relations efforts to disabuse the notion to the younger people, that it’s long hours and less pay. again, how do you how do you get somebody to compress their their roadmap, their career roadmap to get them where they want to be in a culture that they like, compensated appropriately for what they do? this is a big challenge. so as as you unfurled your thoughts, i’m in furrowing my thoughts. so you tell me what you think.
david bergstein 05:32
i think you’re right on point there, because you’re really saying almost the same as me. now, remember, i said, i’m neutral. so you could get everything you need through experience. but the things you added on there is what i’m saying. it’s got to be the culture. and it’s got to be the fact that it should never be super long hours forever. you got to have the salary raised, it’s got to be marketing, to show that it’s an exciting career. it’s not looking at the past with numbers, technology has flipped even what a starting accountant does. so even when someone comes into the profession, and starts off, they don’t necessarily have to do the same things they had to do in the past. bank recs is a whole different process. cash receipts, cash disbursements, it’s all automated. it’s all digital. auditing is different today. so four years, five years, i don’t think it really matters, per se.
steven sacks 06:26
we’ve that in minnesota, there’s movement afoot there to maybe look at the alternative. i think there were three alternatives that were raised. keep it as it is — laissez faire, or have the one-year of internship like pwc being the exemplar. and then there was a third one, like sort of a hybrid.
david bergstein 06:48
i think there was a paraprofessional coming in, so you had a different certificate. again, when you go to look for a job, in today’s job market, i think someone said they look at a resume for seven seconds or so when they’re looking at it. if they see certification of some sort of it, it moves to the top of the list. so, whether we talk five years, four years, etc., the real key to this whole thing, because even i listened to the head of nasba talk. and it wasn’t the five years that was stopping people from coming into the profession. it was the perception of the profession being dull, boring, many hours, low salary. so it’s got to be changed. perceptions got to be changed, as well as everything else. i think we can debate this forever. and it goes both ways. but it’s more important that people who are looking to choose a career while they’re in high school or college, see that the acccounting track is a great track, and that a cpa elevates you and gives you really long-term financial health over the entire career. i think part of the problem also is they don’t see payback on becoming a cpa, because there’s only so many people that become partners. we’re now with the pe — private equity coming in. and people are seeing hey there’s a corporation here, and i get equity. i don’t need to do audit. again, audits always going to be there because there is a capital market that’s out there. but there are many fine things in accounting to do. five years — we can debate it all day. four years. it’s really what’s the reward i get, and is it interesting.
steven sacks 08:38
so, with that said, what’s your final thoughts on this? i know that we’re kind of neutral, in a different way. but again, i look at it from a practical standpoint that an extra 60 or $70,000 a year in, you know, in college debt. what what did they get for it versus, you know, working that year in pwc. and what does that and, and paid internship. whatever. helps defray the costs. so now, you’re doubling down. you’re saving on the $70,000 of that extra year, and you’re getting paid. and perhaps you’re cutting off one-year of experience if you decide to take the cpa exam. so i think it’s a win, win, win. you know, they can take these kids and pay them and work them hard, and they get the experience. the firm gets the benefit of their work. they’re not paying them a full year salary. they’re not paying them benefits. i can’t see an argument that says, gotta have that fifth year. sorry. it’s kind of interesting whether you take four years or five years, choosing online college instead of going face to face college. so that changes the name of the game also. have any the colleges put a discounted price of their education for online courses strictly?
david bergstein 10:10
i haven’t seen that yet. but there are new colleges coming into being that are taking that model, because they’re saying we don’t need place. we’re in the metaverse, and we’re hiring quality instructors. and we’re using the new virtual tools that are out there, so people can actually think they’re in the classroom.
steven sacks 10:31
david, final question. with all said, that if somebody likes the idea of accounting, but not the actual work, but the things that are ancillary to it that are helpful, you know. data analytics, and cyber, all the technology, those things, and they just want to get a four-year degree,. but with what they have they can go into an accounting firm. there’s there’s no reason for them to get the cpa. do you have any thoughts about — other than where they can get a credential? or what credentials they can get?
david bergstein 11:08
yeah, i think, you know, you got to get a degree in accounting to get anywhere in accounting. because when, again, looking through the criteria, when you get a resume, you look for certifications. actually, you can become an accredited tax advisor, or an enrolled agent. you can become an accredited tax advisor. those are certifications. so that should help you with your marketing. but i recommend people just get a degree in accounting. there’s more to accounting than the numbers. it could be exciting. you choose, you know, like you mentioned, you can be a forensic accountant. you can be doing research. you can be doing wealth management advising people based on your accounting skills. using your data analytic skills to analyze choices. you could become a cybersecurity expert, because you know how to follow the trail. but you’re an accountant.
steven sacks 12:10
so here’s what you were saying is very exciting. so if it’s not being filtered down, let’s say, to the undergraduate level, then certainly it’s not being filtered down to the high schools. and that’s why there’s a 300,000 plus shortage of cpas. so with that said, without talking globally about an image, what’s a simple thing that can be done to push down to a lower level knowledge about the accounting profession, and the different roadways, you can take — different paths?
david bergstein 12:49
i think the aicpa and some other organizations are starting to say they got to get into the high schools and elementary schools. start entrapreneurial groups and show how accounting works to give you a career in business. notice, i didn’t say a career in accounting. a career in business, because if you’re going into business, you have to understand how to make decisions. and how do you make decisions in business based on accounting information?
steven sacks 13:18
so here’s the thing. to me, if someone’s in high school, and they want to own their own business, like a bakery, for instance, or a dry cleaners, what have you. filter that knowledge into the use of quickbooks. so if they’re able to do that, and they understand the immersive nature of accounting, how things go into the financial statements, then they’ll know. so is there, i don’t know. is there a possibility of disintermediating the cpa from a potential client? or would that obviate the need for the accountant to do the books and be called on solely to help that bakery owner or that the dry cleaners become more profitable? what’s your thinking on it?
david bergstein 14:15
the answer, the answer is definitely yes. because you — and actually, that’s the future of accounting. the future of accounting is not accounting because as private equity comes into play, all the growth is in non-attest and non-audit side because there’s so much consulting or opportunity to advisory services, which is all-encompassing. the a and a is not going away. there’s always gonna —
steven sacks 14:45
that’s your annuity.
david bergstein 14:46
i agree with you. comments? both david and i would appreciate your feedback. thank you so much. david, be well.